Shno's House of Z

[mkorgan]

I may be the only one but I have little interest in the "refinement" of a muscle car. The more you spend building a cockpit with switches for heated and cooled seats...the less money you have for performance when trying to slot the car into a price range for your target customer. Let those who want the frills get the caddy, let those who want the 2 seat sports car get the vette, and for those who want the muscle car....the Camaro. If I spill a coke in my Camaro I don't want to have to go to therapy to get over it like I would in an upscale caddy or vette. Make sure it is comfortable, has a decent radio, and put every dime of engineering beyond that into the performance. That is what I want in a muscle car, that is what I want in the NG Camaro.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

I may be the only one but I have little interest in the "refinement" of a muscle car. The more you spend building a cockpit with switches for heated and cooled seats...the less money you have for performance when trying to slot the car into a price range for your target customer. Let those who want the frills get the caddy, let those who want the 2 seat sports car get the vette, and for those who want the muscle car....the Camaro. If I spill a coke in my Camaro I don't want to have to go to therapy to get over it like I would in an upscale caddy or vette. Make sure it is comfortable, has a decent radio, and put every dime of engineering beyond that into the performance. That is what I want in a muscle car, that is what I want in the NG Camaro.

But here is where the battle lies. If I can buy a Mustang for the same money as a Camaro that rivals the 4 or M4 and the Camaro is lagging (again) in refinement then Camaro sales will tumble. If the sales tumble then the amount of money GM can pile back in is limited and we could be in the death spiral of 2000 again.

For a lot of people it still boils down to how much can I get for my money.

Also a story, Mrs. Number 3 was Marketing Manager on the C5 Corvette. Early clinics were "CUP HOLDERS!!!!!!! NO ONE drinks in my Corvette. Why would I even want one cup holder". But when the car launched one of the biggest complaints was "the cup holders in this car SUCK". LOL.

For the Camaro to succeed, I've always suggested it needs to be the best coupe you can buy...............PERIOD. It should be so good that Honda and Nissan have to quit selling Accord and Altima coupes. And yet it should blow a Mustang into the weeds with ease.

I just look at the Impala. Look how good that car is....................but how good could that car be if it had the Hiper strut front suspension, linked H-arm rear suspension ANNNNNNNND the 3.6L TT engine. It would go from very good to GREAT.

[90503]

Originally Posted by Number 3

But here is where the battle lies. If I can buy a Mustang for the same money as a Camaro that rivals the 4 or M4 and the Camaro is lagging (again) in refinement then Camaro sales will tumble. If the sales tumble then the amount of money GM can pile back in is limited and we could be in the death spiral of 2000 again.

For a lot of people it still boils down to how much can I get for my money.

Also a story, Mrs. Number 3 was Marketing Manager on the C5 Corvette. Early clinics were "CUP HOLDERS!!!!!!! NO ONE drinks in my Corvette. Why would I even want one cup holder". But when the car launched one of the biggest complaints was "the cup holders in this car SUCK". LOL.

For the Camaro to succeed, I've always suggested it needs to be the best coupe you can buy...............PERIOD. It should be so good that Honda and Nissan have to quit selling Accord and Altima coupes. And yet it should blow a Mustang into the weeds with ease.

I just look at the Impala. Look how good that car is....................but how good could that car be if it had the Hiper strut front suspension, linked H-arm rear suspension ANNNNNNNND the 3.6L TT engine. It would go from very good to GREAT.

That all sounds fine, but may not happen if GM has all this "in-fighting" about the "levels" of it's own models...Camaro can't be faster than Vette, Cadillac must be more luxurious than the rest, keeping many of their own models "down" to make others look better, etc., etc.

Outdoing Honda, Nissan, BMW, Ford, and all won't happen if they are so concerned about not stepping on each others own toes.

[mkorgan]

Originally Posted by Number 3

But here is where the battle lies. If I can buy a Mustang for the same money as a Camaro that rivals the 4 or M4 and the Camaro is lagging (again) in refinement then Camaro sales will tumble. If the sales tumble then the amount of money GM can pile back in is limited and we could be in the death spiral of 2000 again.

For a lot of people it still boils down to how much can I get for my money.

Also a story, Mrs. Number 3 was Marketing Manager on the C5 Corvette. Early clinics were "CUP HOLDERS!!!!!!! NO ONE drinks in my Corvette. Why would I even want one cup holder". But when the car launched one of the biggest complaints was "the cup holders in this car SUCK". LOL.

For the Camaro to succeed, I've always suggested it needs to be the best coupe you can buy...............PERIOD. It should be so good that Honda and Nissan have to quit selling Accord and Altima coupes. And yet it should blow a Mustang into the weeds with ease.

I just look at the Impala. Look how good that car is....................but how good could that car be if it had the Hiper strut front suspension, linked H-arm rear suspension ANNNNNNNND the 3.6L TT engine. It would go from very good to GREAT.

I understand where you are coming from and you probably are in the majority BUT if I wanted refinement and performance I would by an M6. It could be just me but I have no problem see Camaro having a path forward that does not encroach on the Caddy or the Vette. HP, Handling, and Attitude....with a back seat. Caddy will never have an attitude...it is too refined for that. Vetter will never have a back seat. To me, the Camaro is where the to Caddy/Vette meet with a little less of each but overall great in its own right.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

I understand where you are coming from and you probably are in the majority BUT if I wanted refinement and performance I would by an M6. It could be just me but I have no problem see Camaro having a path forward that does not encroach on the Caddy or the Vette. HP, Handling, and Attitude....with a back seat. Caddy will never have an attitude...it is too refined for that. Vetter will never have a back seat. To me, the Camaro is where the to Caddy/Vette meet with a little less of each but overall great in its own right.

Sounds like you want a Z/28!!!

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Sounds like you want a Z/28!!!

If he can consider a 100K plus M6 he can most certainly get the Z/28.

I think the notion of some base level, little refinement "muscle car" is about to go away.

Just my opinion, but the new definition will likely include cars like the M4, the RS5 etc. It will be about simply having V8 power.

You will have to see a huge jump in refinement on the next Camaro simply to compete with the Mustang let alone all the other coupes in the market. And that jump in refinement will push the Camaro up in price and closer to BMWs and Audis.

Go back in time a bit and look at another great car brand in history, Oldsmobile. In the late 70's, the Cutlass sold over 400,000 units for several years. In the end, there was the Aurora (a wonderful car) and the Intrigue. Both were expensive and so much so that they flirted with entry level BMWs and MBs products. What would you rather have in your driveway? An Olds or a BMW? Once you get $ for $ equivalency, then you aren't competing with Mustangs, you are competing with BMW and that is an entirely different comparison.

It's why GM still has one too many brands. But Buick will not be eliminated for many good reasons. But Chevrolet does not have the ability to make as good a car as it could. There are limitations.

Now another historical point of reference, in GM's heyday when they were so big the government threatened to break them up, the only real competition GM had was it's own self. How many different V8 engines did GM have? At one point there were multiple big block and small block V8s in various GM divisions. Remember the lawsuit over the "Chevymobile" when GM was putting engines from one brand into another?

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I think the notion of some base level, little refinement "muscle car" is about to go away.

I don't like it but I agree......

[mlee]

Originally Posted by Number 3

That is the new ELR I believe. The Cadillac with the Volt(ron) powertrain. Also built by the folks at Hamtramck.

Yes, you are correct.

I knew it was a new letter combo that I didn't recognize..

[Number 3]

Bill in Michigan to require front plates???? WTF??

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Bill in Michigan to require front plates???? WTF??

That sucks. Who's pushing for that?

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

That sucks. Who's pushing for that?

Some state legislator that thinks it helps as a reflective device on a car with headlamps off that will help law enforcement.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Some state legislator that thinks it helps as a reflective device on a car with headlamps off that will help law enforcement.

Um yeah?! Why would they even think of that? Strange. They'll also up the fee.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Um yeah?! Why would they even think of that? Strange. They'll also up the fee.

Somebody has to pay for this stupid idea. Why not the car owner?

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Some state legislator that thinks it helps as a reflective device on a car with headlamps off that will help law enforcement.

In Ontario, we now have patrol cars equipped with License Plate Readers (patented in 1984?) that immediately scan a plate (fronts especially!), pulls up the owner info/history, any want 'n warrants, AND CONFIRMS WHETHER THE VEHICLE HAS VALID INSURANCE!! Anything out of order gets the driver a roadside consultation...

Did I mention 1984?

Maybe, with NSA and Patriot Act and everything else, MI is getting ready for something similar. All that potential indirect taxation can't be a bad thing...

P.S. I agree with the insurance confirmation, but don't get caught taking your winter-stored car for a warm-up lap, mid-winter!!! Up to $10,000 FINE if no road coverage! When I drop road coverage at storage time, I get a letter, within two weeks, from the Ministry of Transportation advising me of my lack of coverage and "Do NOT get caught on the road with this vehicle" sort of verbiage... You're just a "scan 'n BEEEEEP!" away from serious financial harm.