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Old 08-18-2009, 10:20 PM   #1
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Automobile Magazine's "Camaro SS vs Mustang GT w/ Track Pack" on Road Course

Pretty intersting write up and great comparisons starting on page 3 with numerical results on page 8. Thought some of you would enjoy.

http://www.automobilemag.com/feature...ies/index.html
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Old 08-19-2009, 06:29 AM   #2
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Good read but it seemed like a lot of Mustang nut hugging was going on. After reading page 4, I thought for sure the Mustang was gonna run away victorious but then you look at page 8 and the Camaro handily beats almost every category except some cornering g's categories, which even then are still very close. Scary to think what this car would do to a non track pack GT.
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:28 AM   #3
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The opposite holds just as true, what is a Track Pack Mustang with 400hpgoing to do to the Camaro SS? Like I said in another thread, .7 seconds is a surprisingly small gap considering the huge gap in power between the two cars, the gap in mid range torque is particularly noteworthy. If handling between these two models was on remotely the same level the Camaro should positively run off and hide from the Mustang, to the tune of several seconds. That this does not occur tells you that the Camaro is not and likely was not intended to be a true GT and indeed does slant more heavily toward the muscle car side of the equation.

The Camaro deserves credit for a very good powerplant and great brakes, but stellar handling was obviously not a developmental hot button for the Chevy. Nothing wrong with that, many a classic muscle car was built on the same principle and to lesser effect. That said, you have to expect people who drive race cars for a living to prefer the car with the bend toward great handling, which is hwt we see here. Different strokes for different folks.
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:15 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by syr74 View Post
The opposite holds just as true, what is a Track Pack Mustang with 400hpgoing to do to the Camaro SS? Like I said in another thread, .7 seconds is a surprisingly small gap considering the huge gap in power between the two cars, the gap in mid range torque is particularly noteworthy. If handling between these two models was on remotely the same level the Camaro should positively run off and hide from the Mustang, to the tune of several seconds. That this does not occur tells you that the Camaro is not and likely was not intended to be a true GT and indeed does slant more heavily toward the muscle car side of the equation.

The Camaro deserves credit for a very good powerplant and great brakes, but stellar handling was obviously not a developmental hot button for the Chevy. Nothing wrong with that, many a classic muscle car was built on the same principle and to lesser effect. That said, you have to expect people who drive race cars for a living to prefer the car with the bend toward great handling, which is hwt we see here. Different strokes for different folks.


1. A 400 hp Mustang does NOT exist yet.

2. 0.7 seconds is nothing? Did you look at any other performance category or did you only focus on the ones convenient to you? Are you gonna be driving the two cars in a road track 100% of the time? Look at the numbers that really matter in day to day driving. It is NOT EVEN CLOSE.

3. Why do people keep bringing up the "for a car with so and so less HP it does well". Who the hell cares? It is not all about hp, it is about hp/lb. The Mustang does well because it is lighter, true. We shall see how heavy a new 400 hp Mustang is, until then I don't really care to discuss imaginary cars.
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:29 AM   #5
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1. A 400 hp Mustang does NOT exist yet.

2. 0.7 seconds is nothing? Did you look at any other performance category or did you only focus on the ones convenient to you? Are you gonna be driving the two cars in a road track 100% of the time? Look at the numbers that really matter in day to day driving. It is NOT EVEN CLOSE.

3. Why do people keep bringing up the "for a car with so and so less HP it does well". Who the hell cares? It is not all about hp, it is about hp/lb. The Mustang does well because it is lighter, true. We shall see how heavy a new 400 hp Mustang is, until then I don't really care to discuss imaginary cars.
1. No, but it will be here in significantly less than a year. So, if you want a true GT, why would you buy a 4000lb Camaro now when you can wait for a much lighter Mustang with better handling, similar power, and superior power to weight?

2. Who said .7 second was nothing? I did say it is an amazingly small gap between two car which are supposed to be in the same segment with a greater than 100hp disparity between the two, because it is. We already knew the Camaro was notably faster in a straight line, this simply proves that the Chevy is more of a cruiser than a corner carver. But then, we knew that already too. Like I said earlier there is nothing wrong with that, it just is what it is.

3. I find it amazingly easy to tell just how disappointed Chevy enthusiasts actually are in the curb weight of the new Camaro SS by how 'touchy' they become about the weight of the new 400hp Mustang GT. This extreme weight gain you guys keep hoping will hinder the new Mustang GT just isn't going to happen, there simply exists no plausible reason why anything like this would occur.
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:39 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by syr74 View Post
1. No, but it will be here in significantly less than a year. So, if you want a true GT, why would you buy a 4000lb Camaro now when you can wait for a much lighter Mustang with better handling, similar power, and superior power to weight?

2. Who said .7 second was nothing? I did say it is an amazingly small gap between two car which are supposed to be in the same segment with a greater than 100hp disparity between the two, because it is. We already knew the Camaro was notably faster in a straight line, this simply proves that the Chevy is more of a cruiser than a corner carver. But then, we knew that already too. Like I said earlier there is nothing wrong with that, it just is what it is.

3. I find it amazingly easy to tell just how disappointed Chevy enthusiasts actually are in the curb weight of the new Camaro SS by how 'touchy' they become about the weight of the new 400hp Mustang GT. This extreme weight gain you guys keep hoping will hinder the new Mustang GT just isn't going to happen, there simply exists no plausible reason why anything like this would occur.

You say the Camaro is more of a cruiser than a corner carver but it still runs faster through the course?? If I were looking at it and I saw the Camaro had faster lap times, faster straight line and a shorter stopping distance then my conclusion is that it is a better car all around. Not taking anything away from the Mustang but until the "so-called" 400hp engine comes out, it will not turn out the way the Mustang faithfuls want it too!!
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:48 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTengineer View Post


1. A 400 hp Mustang does NOT exist yet.

2. 0.7 seconds is nothing? Did you look at any other performance category or did you only focus on the ones convenient to you? Are you gonna be driving the two cars in a road track 100% of the time? Look at the numbers that really matter in day to day driving. It is NOT EVEN CLOSE.

3. Why do people keep bringing up the "for a car with so and so less HP it does well". Who the hell cares? It is not all about hp, it is about hp/lb. The Mustang does well because it is lighter, true. We shall see how heavy a new 400 hp Mustang is, until then I don't really care to discuss imaginary cars.
On point number 2, how the hell does a faster 1/4 mile time make a care better in day to day driving? The mustang is roomier, easier to see out of, has all the electronic nannies, and the most livable interior and available comfort features. Nothing against the Camaro, I love the car and it is still in consideration for my next purchase, but I know of the 3 muscle/pony cars I would be giving up the most with it for a day to day driver.
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:54 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syr74 View Post

3. I find it amazingly easy to tell just how disappointed Chevy enthusiasts actually are in the curb weight of the new Camaro SS by how 'touchy' they become about the weight of the new 400hp Mustang GT. This extreme weight gain you guys keep hoping will hinder the new Mustang GT just isn't going to happen, there simply exists no plausible reason why anything like this would occur.
I find it amazingly easy to tell just how disappointed FORDenthusiasts actually are in how fast the 2010 mustang is by how much they talk about the 2011 mustang

Look, if in 2011 the mustang is faster, then great for ford. Lets wait and see instead of racing hypothetical cars. Maybe the ford will gain weight, maybe it wont. I heard rumors the 5.0 liter wont be in the gt, but a higher tier mustang and the gt would have the turbo v6. I also heard rumors the v8 wont have 400 horsepower. We wont know untill 2010 what the 2011 mustang will be like. Maybe the camaro will get a more agressive tuned suspension, as its current setup is kinda conservitive. Who knows what will happen.

Bottom line, right now the camaro is faster than the mustang, stop making excuses. If we do this again in 2011, and the mustang is faster, i will give you the courtesy of admitting it and not constantly making excuses.

The camaro is not the better cruiser, as it outran the mustang on a road course, NOT THE DRAG STRIP. Its the better performance car.
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:59 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Stew View Post
On point number 2, how the hell does a faster 1/4 mile time make a care better in day to day driving? The mustang is roomier, easier to see out of, has all the electronic nannies, and the most livable interior and available comfort features. Nothing against the Camaro, I love the car and it is still in consideration for my next purchase, but I know of the 3 muscle/pony cars I would be giving up the most with it for a day to day driver.
Sounds like you should buy a loaded out Mini-Van - not a muscle car!!
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:06 AM   #10
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I find it amazingly easy to tell just how disappointed FORDenthusiasts actually are in how fast the 2010 mustang is by how much they talk about the 2011 mustang
I have made no bones about the fact that I think the 2010 Mustang GT is easily the better performance car right now, I just think 2011 will absolutely put Camaro on the trailer and, as the most interesting topic on any GM forum right now is the long term health of GM, I find that topic particularly interesting. When you take away the power advantage what does Camaro have left? Seriously?

Quote:
Originally Posted by diV6
I heard rumors the 5.0 liter wont be in the gt, but a higher tier mustang and the gt would have the turbo v6.
Well, that would be the difference between rumors and known info. Mustang part numbers exist for the 2011 5.0L V8, not for the 3.5L Ecoboost V6...doesn't get more solid than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diV6
I also heard rumors the v8 wont have 400 horsepower.
And Bill Ford said there will be a 400hp Mustang. Of the three that will be produced, 3.7L V6-powered base model, 5.0L V8-powered GT, and 5.4L SC/INT V8 powered GT500, I think we know which one he was referring to.

GM better have something amazing up their sleeve, because the Camaro is going to need nearly Z06 level power to hold it's own against a 400hp/400lb-ft tq Mustang GT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diV6
We wont know untill 2010 what the 2011 mustang will be like. Maybe the camaro will get a more agressive tuned suspension, as its current setup is kinda conservative. Who knows what will happen.
I guarantee it will still weight 4000lb, until they solve that the straight line advantage the Chevy holds exists at the sufferance of FoMoCo. Do you really think that is a position GM wants to be in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by diV6
Bottom line, right now the camaro is faster than the mustang, stop making excuses. If we do this again in 2011, and the mustang is faster, i will give you the courtesy of admitting it and not constantly making excuses.
In a straight line, yes. On a road course where the Camaro can use it's power advantage, yes. On a road course where they Chevy can't use that big, mid range torque? No doubt about it....Camaro loses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diV6
The camaro is not the better cruiser, as it outran the mustang on a road course, NOT THE DRAG STRIP. Its the better performance car.
So long as performance lives in a very narrow envelope maybe. In a scenario where the Camaro can use it's extra hp and torque it will beat the Mustang, but nowhere else. Where is the handling brilliance the uber-expensive Zeta chassis was supposed to bring to the table?

In terms of handling the Camaro is a let down, no plainer way to state it.
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:16 AM   #11
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Keep it clean gentlemen.

I'm sorry but we have very little patience for conversations that we've hashed out over and over again.

I liked the article also.

I'm glad the Camaro out performed the Mustang but I'm bummed that it wasn't as much fun to drive...

GM really needs to fix that understeer... If they do, the camaro would have walked away from the mustang as they could have maintined higher speeds through the corners.

When the 400hp mustang hits the streets it will be a much different competition... GM will HAVE to fix the understeer or the new mustang might have enough to beat it...

MHO.
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:23 AM   #12
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I liked the article also.

I'm glad the Camaro out performed the Mustang but I'm bummed that it wasn't as much fun to drive...

GM really needs to fix that understeer... If they do, the camaro would have walked away from the mustang as they could have maintined higher speeds through the corners.

When the 400hp mustang hits the streets it will be a much different competition... GM will HAVE to fix the understeer or the new mustang might have enough to beat it...

MHO.
Now that is a post worth making. He supports the home team, noting that the Camaro managed to stay ahead, and then acknowledges that the corner carver award didn't go GM's way.

The whole 'my car is better at everything even when it isn't' angle just gets tired. Camaro is really good at some things, not so great at others. If GM is discussing any fixes for the issues the car does have I am as interested as anybody else to hear them.

Obvious Camaro problems: Understeer is a mother and you cannot change line at speed once in a corner without losing even more speed, due at least partially to the former.

Obvious Mustang problems: Brake fade comes in fast and hard, 315hp isn't cutting it, a problem which really shows up in the mid range.

If I were calling he shots needed to fix the Camaro I wouldn't even touch the engine. Issues I would look at would be...

1: Can the gearing be fine tuned any further to improve acceleration and or fuel economy even a little? Neither area is bad, but more never hurts and BMW and Porsche have made a literal living by making cars go faster than the power ratings would suggest that they should. How? They tweak the gearing until it is genuinely perfect.

2: Where can we drop some weight. It is possible that meaningful weight loss cannot be had, but it never hurts to try.

3: Obviously, tweak the suspension heavily. Adjust rear spring rates, chage tire size, but solve the understeer issue. Car needs to be more nuetral all the way through the corner.
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:02 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by GTAHVIT View Post
I'm glad the Camaro out performed the Mustang but I'm bummed that it wasn't as much fun to drive...

GM really needs to fix that understeer... If they do, the camaro would have walked away from the mustang as they could have maintined higher speeds through the corners.

When the 400hp mustang hits the streets it will be a much different competition... GM will HAVE to fix the understeer or the new mustang might have enough to beat it...

MHO.
I don't think GM really wants to fix the understeer. They probably view it as a 'safety feature' to help keep people from killing themselves. I'd guess that if they do decide to fix it, they'd do it with some sort of z28 or track pack.
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:20 PM   #14
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It was a good read thats for sure. Points out the strength and weaknesses of both cars. There is one paragraph that really stuck out to me and gives us Camaro lovers a nice glimpse of hope even though the Mustang "has higher grip".

"The Mustang eats the Camaro alive in midcorner but never threatens to get by. "the only way I could pass him" jones acknowledges "is if he makes a mistake-or I dont mind bruising a door." But vastly superior tourque allows the Camaro to pull clear on acceleration. And on the fast corners in the last segment of the circuit and honking down the front straight, the Camaro runs away and hides"
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