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Old 08-21-2009, 12:47 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by jrc1122 View Post
my point is, neither are particularly a great handling car. They aren't known for that. They never will be.
If I remember right from a prior test- the GT track pack got a 69.7 slalom and a .93 skidpad. That's pretty good handling.

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Did you guys actually read why it got rated a better car?

On the cover it says mustang wins with less power...lol really.

First they only performance catagory it won was lat gs. Maybe the slalom I dont remember. But camaro beat it in everything else. They tied on braking.

Then they sell the mustang up on interior bs that has nothing to do with performance. They are not comparing luxury cars here.

Then they do a final gear run to like 120 or something. Of course the mustang wins that. Its only got 5 gears. Put the Camaro in 5th and see what happens. Then because of that they actually had the balls to label the Mustangs 5 speed a better transmission. LOL

Sorry Ford paid for this article. No ifs ands or buts about it. Its complete nonsense. Also its the first issue I bought since the Viper lost to some foreign car because "the exhaust note was too loud" on super cars....lol

So this will be the last issue I buy from them again. They are obviously paid off.
The old 'got paid off' card. BS. Pretty sure those are 2 different articles too.
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Old 08-21-2009, 12:58 PM   #58
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my point is, neither are particularly a great handling car. They aren't known for that. They never will be.
Mustang is a track/twisty road standout. Steering feel is superb, predictability is good, the car is nicely balanced, and lap times on most every track are very good for the given power levels. In GT and GT500 trim Mustang already covers all the bases here.

The 'so and so paid for the article' spiel isn't even worth replying to.
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Old 08-21-2009, 02:56 PM   #59
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All that needs to be said? Remind me again, what did both of them have to say about Camaro handling? (I wont quote them here myself, but it wasn't pretty) Seriously, this is where we slip into the realm of denial and otherwise decent threads degrade into worthless feel good sessions.

The only downfall you keep trolling around tooting your horn about is the handling... GM did a great drop engineering in a bit of understeer to keep the focus and attention on the vehicle for furture up-grades, need room for improvement somewhere...

But lets keep talking about the dream machine 2011 Mustang on a Camaro forum...vroom-vroom internet racing is so much fun, even more so when you don't own either of the vehicles and have no idea what your talking about except what ya' read in an article...
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Old 08-21-2009, 02:58 PM   #60
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Maybe I have the article wrong. The one Im refering to says "musting wins with less power" with the camaro mustang challenger shoot out.

Its a bs article.

Do you believe the mustang has a better transmission because it can get to 120 faster from 5th gear than the camaro from 6th gear?

Do you believe the mustang is a better sports car because it has one less gear. Or maybe because it has a "more egronomic" interior.

Maybe you guys also belive that Transformers used GM vehicles because they like them. Maybe you guys also belive that in the new Knight Rider show they used a new Mustang because it was the best car around.

The camaro beat the mustang in every legit catagory that wasnt opinion based. Except lat gs. So if on paper and on the track the Camaro out performs the Mustang.....how does the mustang win?

Oh yeah, say it has a better interior and better transmission.....even though its a 5 speed.
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Old 08-21-2009, 03:04 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by syr74 View Post
All that needs to be said? Remind me again, what did both of them have to say about Camaro handling? (I wont quote them here myself, but it wasn't pretty) Seriously, this is where we slip into the realm of denial and otherwise decent threads degrade into worthless feel good sessions.
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x2
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Originally Posted by Ninjak View Post
x3

All the power means nothing if you are trying to corner and hit the wall.

Your right the quotes about the Camaro's handling where not pretty.... Yet the mustang could not pass it and turned slower laps. Both cars have "issues" and depending on the angle you look at it from both sides can sling mud. The end result is what matters to me...... and the end result was the CAMARO had better times even with the bad handling.
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Old 08-21-2009, 03:54 PM   #62
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Your right the quotes about the Camaro's handling where not pretty.... Yet the mustang could not pass it and turned slower laps. Both cars have "issues" and depending on the angle you look at it from both sides can sling mud. The end result is what matters to me...... and the end result was the CAMARO had better times even with the bad handling.
That's always been the F-Body thing... (well for the last few generations at least)... R&T did an article (sibling rivalry) a number of years ago and the 4th gen Camaro beat out cars like the Honda S2000 on a roadcourse by 2+ seconds. It still does change the fact that the handling fell short... unless you are truly blinded by loyalty these things are important. Personally after switching to 1LE components I feel GM screwed the pooch in the handling department on the 4th gens and didn't go far enough with the 5th. I just like having good handling AND solid acceleration numbers.
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:02 PM   #63
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That's always been the F-Body thing... (well for the last few generations at least)... R&T did an article (sibling rivalry) a number of years ago and the 4th gen Camaro beat out cars like the Honda S2000 on a roadcourse by 2+ seconds. It still does change the fact that the handling fell short... unless you are truly blinded by loyalty these things are important. Personally after switching to 1LE components I feel GM screwed the pooch in the handling department on the 4th gens and didn't go far enough with the 5th. I just like having good handling AND solid acceleration numbers.

I agree handling is VERY important.... thats why one of the first things I will do is call up pedders. Still does not change the fact that the Mustang with track pack could not pass the Ill handling Camaro.....

This debate will not end until we get a equal horspower and handling type test.... even then we will find something to argue about
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:07 PM   #64
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OK guys.

We're kinda going round and round on this one now. Let try and keep the conversation moving forward and not stuck in the same round a bout argument..

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Old 08-21-2009, 04:08 PM   #65
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Okie dokie... my bad!
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:12 PM   #66
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I agree handling is VERY important.... thats why one of the first things I will do is call up pedders. Still does not change the fact that the Mustang with track pack could not pass the Ill handling Camaro.....

This debate will not end until we get a equal horspower and handling type test.... even then we will find something to argue about
Haha...agreed here.
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:12 PM   #67
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That's always been the F-Body thing... (well for the last few generations at least)... R&T did an article (sibling rivalry) a number of years ago and the 4th gen Camaro beat out cars like the Honda S2000 on a roadcourse by 2+ seconds. It still does change the fact that the handling fell short... unless you are truly blinded by loyalty these things are important. Personally after switching to 1LE components I feel GM screwed the pooch in the handling department on the 4th gens and didn't go far enough with the 5th. I just like having good handling AND solid acceleration numbers.
so where do we draw the line... ATTEN gm i want my CAMARO PREFECT!!!! Most people just say thanks for the cheap LS3 ill take care of any extra work to be needed. thats what the "aftermarket is for" jezzz if it were up to you guys there would be no aftermarket...
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:26 PM   #68
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so where do we draw the line... ATTEN gm i want my CAMARO PREFECT!!!! Most people just say thanks for the cheap LS3 ill take care of any extra work to be needed. thats what the "aftermarket is for" jezzz if it were up to you guys there would be no aftermarket...
I think we might be confusing two different issues.

One, is the camaro, in stock form, capable of being a better handling car. What I mean is with some adjusting to the stock components can GM make the understeer go away?

Not to be confused with: The suspension components on the camaro are inferior and therefore should be replace with aftermarket pieces.

I'd like to think that the Stock Camaro can be tuned to perform better.

But I completely agree that a stock camaro will never be as good as one with a some money thrown at aftermarket suspension.

Lets not confuse the two...

Well I guess there could be a third. GM could leave the suspension as is and offer a track pack like the GT...

I'd still like to read a review of a GT without the track pack to see if it is significantly worse than one with the track pack... Maybe the non track pack cars have similar suspension issues to the stock SS...

Just a thought...
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:42 PM   #69
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OK guys.

We're kinda going round and round on this one now. Let try and keep the conversation moving forward and not stuck in the same round a bout argument..

But going round and round in the vs section is what we do ! My sixth sense is tingling that someone somewhere just started to type another vs Genesis thread.


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Maybe I have the article wrong. The one Im refering to says "musting wins with less power" with the camaro mustang challenger shoot out.

Its a bs article.

Do you believe the mustang has a better transmission because it can get to 120 faster from 5th gear than the camaro from 6th gear?

I'm not sure what this part means

Do you believe the mustang is a better sports car because it has one less gear. Or maybe because it has a "more egronomic" interior.

Not really, but I don't think a 6th gear automatically makes a transmission better either. By that math Lexus are the best because they have 8. Ergonomics vs interior quality and materials- two different things. Ergonomics might because ergonomics specifically means that the equipment is easier to use-thats a big deal. Everything could be flat black hard plastic and still be more ergonomic.

Maybe you guys also belive that Transformers used GM vehicles because they like them. Maybe you guys also belive that in the new Knight Rider show they used a new Mustang because it was the best car around.

Product tie ins are different than magazine articles. Maybe what seems like bias is actually that they honestly like the Mustang more. So the articles where Camaro won- those were honest wins and everything else was a bribe?

The camaro beat the mustang in every legit catagory that wasnt opinion based. Except lat gs. So if on paper and on the track the Camaro out performs the Mustang.....how does the mustang win?

Not really, it won on the slalom which is chassis dynamics. Chassis dynamics is sort of a big deal if you are comparing cars overall performance. Apparently from this article it still is.

Oh yeah, say it has a better interior and better transmission.....even though its a 5 speed.

Well if acceleration and power goes to Camaro by a lot, but Chassis dynamics goes to Mustang by a lot- then you end up with a tie breaker I guess. I don't know, I still prefer the Camaro, but I understand what the article is saying and don't think they were bought off. It's not hard to get more power, it's harder to get good chassis dynamics.
edit: here's the best example I can think of too. I have an 09 Cobalt SS. On paper, objectively it's absolutely the standout in its class. It will take a Mini Cooper Ss lunch money at a racetrack, bitch slap it and laugh as it runs away. Guess what- in all honesty- I think the Cooper may be a more fun car to drive. Numbers just simply aren't everything.
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Old 08-22-2009, 01:24 AM   #70
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I think we might be confusing two different issues.

One, is the camaro, in stock form, capable of being a better handling car. What I mean is with some adjusting to the stock components can GM make the understeer go away?

Not to be confused with: The suspension components on the camaro are inferior and therefore should be replace with aftermarket pieces.

I'd like to think that the Stock Camaro can be tuned to perform better.

But I completely agree that a stock camaro will never be as good as one with a some money thrown at aftermarket suspension.

Lets not confuse the two...

Well I guess there could be a third. GM could leave the suspension as is and offer a track pack like the GT...

I'd still like to read a review of a GT without the track pack to see if it is significantly worse than one with the track pack... Maybe the non track pack cars have similar suspension issues to the stock SS...

Just a thought...
With that ..I don't think I even need to respond. Well said.
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