[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I would say the GT500 has to be faster than the ZL1. If it just went straight for ZL1 1LE that would be impressive but I don't see that happening. Lately ford has offered variants of its performance models.

Example Boss 302 and Boss 302 LS. GT500 and GT500 Track Pack, GT and GTPP, 350 and 350R

I would assume an S550 GT500 would have a base model and possibly an R model just based on Ford's history in the recent years.

Ford also knows it has to come in around what the ZL1 is, they are not stupid so I would expect it to have a similar MSRP to the ZL1.

I still don't think it will piss GT350 owners off, if they paid ADM that is their fault. I would expect the 500 to come in around the same MSRP as the 350R in that 60K range.


Or they could really throw everyone off and just go chasing Hellcats lol

I see your point but I don't think Ford can put out something to keep up with the ZL1 at a comparable price. Unless they sacrifice and make it more of a straight line beast and leave the cornering stuff just sufficient. The GT350R already came in at mid $60K and couldn't corner well enough to beat the ZL1. So they would need at the very least the GT350R's handling capabilities. Then they would have to increase the hp/tq and that will require forced induction, stronger internals, beefier trans, and better brakes. And then what about options? Will they just throw a radio in and some basic creature comforts? Or will they need to add in stuff like heated/cooled seats, heated steering wheel, etc? After all that do you really think they can keep a price that matches the ZL1? Because I really don't think so. And then they would still have the ZL1 1LE. I don't see how they can do all that and remain in the same price range.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So then, with the GT350R MSRP higher than the ZL1, how is it worth the extra money it demands when the over $20K cheaper 1SS 1LE performs the same? Especially when the GT350R is supposed to be a bare bones track car. Look at the other stats...

1SS 1LE quarter mile - 12.4
GT350R quarter mile - 12.2
ZL1 quarter mile - 11.4

HUGE difference.

ZL1 beats both cars in braking also and has more features than both. On top of having a fully forged engine. So yes the ZL1 is worth the extra money. Can the same be said about the GT350R?

Yes I agree with all you said above. I just wanted to remind you that when you constantly compare the GT350Rs times with the SS 1LE in a negative way, you need to compare the 1LEs time to the ZL1s as well. Because if we are talking about bang for the buck for track duty the SS 1LE is clearly the winner.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Yes I agree with all you said above. I just wanted to remind you that when you constantly compare the GT350Rs times with the SS 1LE in a negative way, you need to compare the 1LEs time to the ZL1s as well. Because if we are talking about bang for the buck for track duty the SS 1LE is clearly the winner.

Same token tho you would have to consider that the ZL1 was a full second quicker on that track at an earlier time. The 1SS 1LE nor the GT350R came anywhere near that time. It has been stated tho that the 1SS 1LE actually is the better bang for the buck on a track. But it still loses to the ZL1.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

You do understand that 0.39 seconds is a LOT of time on a track right? That is almost 4 tenths. And when pushing both cars to their limits that is a significant difference. Look at it this way, if the ZL1 made that lead in the straights, then that means it kept up with the GT350R in every turn. If it made that time thru the entire track, then it just straight up bested the GT350R the entire time. But whatever makes you feel better...

The GT350R was able to brake later and accelerate quicker out of nearly every turn. It was also able to shift far less as the powerband and gear ratios allow it to maintain RPM. The turns is the biggest reason the GT350R was only .39 seconds behind the ZL1.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Yea I have my doubts that we will see a S550 GT500. I don't think Ford can realistically put one out there without really scorning the GT350R owners. If they do then it will be cheaper and will not keep up with the ZL1 which will be bad. If it is more expensive then it will be way above the price point of the ZL1 1LE (like I said before)...so high it will have to be near what GT350R owners paid. At that point if it isn't a "special edition" or limited production then it will not be worth the tag. Either way GT350R owners are gonna get burned. But again, I think Ford realizes this and is not gonna put it out there. I'll have a good laugh either way!!

To hell with scorning GT350R owners. I don't believe Fords intent was to make a collectors car. As shown in the past, these special editions cars are always bested a few years later by base level vehicles.

It is a bit tough however to justify making a supercharged GT500 anywhere near the same price as the GT350. Of course, you know damn well if Ford releases one that is higher priced....collectors will eat it up. That doesn't do you or me any good. Kudos to GM for keeping prices in check.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

If that is soo then who is to say that conditions weren't more favorable on the day the GT350R ran? In which case they would be tied or close to tied yet again. That is where speculation gets you. Because you're trying to assume that the conditions were great when the 1SS 1LE ran and horrible when the Gt350R ran. And even if that was soo, the ZL1 would still be better than all of them. So your argument is mooted, try again.

I've long stated that the times for sure can swing either way. Without running with the same driver on the same day, none can say either is definitively faster than the other...or equal to the other...or slower than the other. Many keep on spouting that the 1LE runs times on par with the GT350 when it could easily be seconds slower OR yes, even faster. It's total speculation however.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

That has nothing to do with now. The GT500 will have to be faster than the ZL1 1LE. Which by default will make it faster than the GT350R. The Z28 costed a bit more than the ZL1 in the 5th Gen. But they ran almost identical times in the quarter mile with the Z28 being better on the track. That isn't gonna fly with the GT500. It'll have to be better at both to keep up with the Camaro if that is it's true competitor as you put it. And yes, if you paid $90K for a GT350R just to have the GT500 show up at way less and beat it at everything then that would be a burn.

It doesn't really have to be better, Ford just needs it to sell and maintain value. We all think it should perform better....and in all reality, it will most certainly be better than a GT350 if it were to be released.

[KenB925]

This nonsense is still going on!?

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

The GT350R was able to brake later and accelerate quicker out of nearly every turn. It was also able to shift far less as the powerband and gear ratios allow it to maintain RPM. The turns is the biggest reason the GT350R was only .39 seconds behind the ZL1.

If the Mustang is more dedicated to the track, then the fact that the ZL1 was able to best it while not being dedicated or purpose built but as an all around car and less expensive says a lot. Chevy proved that they can make all around vehicles that can beat purpose built cars on the track and beat or at the very minimum keep up with straight line monsters. It's like having a runner who's the best at sprinting and long distance.

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

To hell with scorning GT350R owners. I don't believe Fords intent was to make a collectors car. As shown in the past, these special editions cars are always bested a few years later by base level vehicles.

I think it's becoming clear that this isn't the formula to use anymore. Especially when your limited edition cars are getting beaten by the competitor's normal production vehicles in the same model year. I don't think it is enough to be simply the fastest Mustang. It isn't enough when the competition is as far ahead of you as the ZL1 is.

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

It is a bit tough however to justify making a supercharged GT500 anywhere near the same price as the GT350. Of course, you know damn well if Ford releases one that is higher priced....collectors will eat it up. That doesn't do you or me any good. Kudos to GM for keeping prices in check.

Yea but they can't just cater to collectors. They have to give their customers equal performance for the money. If they can make it and keep the MSRP at $70K or even low $70K which will be only a few thousand dollars above GT350R MSRP...and if they put an end to dealerships marking the prices up, then I think we have a ballgame on our hands. And again, it'll have to be that price while beating at least the standard ZL1 and offering some kind of options.

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

I've long stated that the times for sure can swing either way. Without running with the same driver on the same day, none can say either is definitively faster than the other...or equal to the other...or slower than the other. Many keep on spouting that the 1LE runs times on par with the GT350 when it could easily be seconds slower OR yes, even faster. It's total speculation however.

All we have to go by for now is what each car ran. Lots of times when people have compared Nurburgring and other track times to other cars they were done on different days. And a lot of times when a specific car breaks a record you hear people say "Oh X car just shattered Y car's lap time". So why is it any different this time?

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

It doesn't really have to be better, Ford just needs it to sell and maintain value. We all think it should perform better....and in all reality, it will most certainly be better than a GT350 if it were to be released.

I think it will have to be better if Ford wants to keep their buyers happy. It's one thing when the GT costs much less and has less performance. But it's another thing when your top model costs more and performs less. The GT500 has it's work cut out. And I think it might be better for Ford to release it for the next generation than to do it for 2019.

[13vertss]

I just reread the article and found something of interest. The zl1 that they ran was the same car that they ran the faster time 3 months earlier. Did they put brand new tires back on, or were they the same ones from the first test? This could explain why most of the numbers were a little off.

[Dethsupp0rt]

Originally Posted by KenB925

This nonsense is still going on!?

It's been going on for 50 years. I suspect it will be going on another 50.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by KenB925

This nonsense is still going on!?

Why is it nonsense? It will go on forever. That is what a rivalry is. There's no harm in it. Its just a sport.

[BlaqWhole]

To keep it going it seems that the GT350 and GT350R is not getting the refresh that the EB and GT Mustangs will get. And it still is only gonna be offered with the 6 speed manual. The GT is getting the A10 trans and for now it is rumored to be getting either 455 or 475 hp. The GT350 and GT350R will be virtually unchanged. So I wonder how that will affect pricing when the GT inches closer to the quarter mile time of the Shelbys.

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

To keep it going it seems that the GT350 and GT350R is not getting the refresh that the EB and GT Mustangs will get. And it still is only gonna be offered with the 6 speed manual. The GT is getting the A10 trans and for now it is rumored to be getting either 455 or 475 hp. The GT350 and GT350R will be virtually unchanged. So I wonder how that will affect pricing when the GT inches closer to the quarter mile time of the Shelbys.

Shelby buyers won't care.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I see your point but I don't think Ford can put out something to keep up with the ZL1 at a comparable price. Unless they sacrifice and make it more of a straight line beast and leave the cornering stuff just sufficient. The GT350R already came in at mid $60K and couldn't corner well enough to beat the ZL1. So they would need at the very least the GT350R's handling capabilities. Then they would have to increase the hp/tq and that will require forced induction, stronger internals, beefier trans, and better brakes. And then what about options? Will they just throw a radio in and some basic creature comforts? Or will they need to add in stuff like heated/cooled seats, heated steering wheel, etc? After all that do you really think they can keep a price that matches the ZL1? Because I really don't think so. And then they would still have the ZL1 1LE. I don't see how they can do all that and remain in the same price range.

2 points...

#1 handling is not the 350R weakness. its down 125hp and 225lbft vs the Zl1. that is a huge hurdle to "corner well enough" to offset

#2 what makes you think they need to stay in that price range? past data says otherwise.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

Shelby buyers won't care.

They won't care that they're spending $65K plus ADMs of $5K to over $20K for a Shelby that hasn't received the refresh? And they won't care that the GT will be closer in performance to it for half the money? That's a lot to not care about if you ask me.

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

2 points...

#1 handling is not the 350R weakness. its down 125hp and 225lbft vs the Zl1. that is a huge hurdle to "corner well enough" to offset

#2 what makes you think they need to stay in that price range? past data says otherwise.

Because at a certain price you start to lose your core client base. How many people can afford to buy an $80,000 car? How many of them will pay that much for a Mustang? How many will pay that much for a Mustang on the performance level of the GT350R when there are cars in that same price range and cheaper that are better? And are these gonna be your loyalists or just some people who got money and figured they'd just up and buy a Mustang? A certain amount of people who will buy a Mustang cannot afford that kind of car. A certain amount of people (like myself) won't pay that kind of money for a car on such a limited level of performance. Some who will won't because over $5K of that is dealer markup. I and many others can't justify spending that money when there are way better cars out there. I would have bought a used Viper, a Hellcat, a C7 Z06, or even a C6 ZR1 before paying that much for a Shelby. And the only reason they're even selling is because they are limited production and the people buying them obviously have money to throw around. That car is soo far out of the reach of most of the normal Mustang guys.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

They won't care that they're spending $65K plus ADMs of $5K to over $20K for a Shelby that hasn't received the refresh? And they won't care that the GT will be closer in performance to it for half the money? That's a lot to not care about if you ask me.



Because at a certain price you start to lose your core client base. How many people can afford to buy an $80,000 car? How many of them will pay that much for a Mustang? How many will pay that much for a Mustang on the performance level of the GT350R when there are cars in that same price range and cheaper that are better? And are these gonna be your loyalists or just some people who got money and figured they'd just up and buy a Mustang? A certain amount of people who will buy a Mustang cannot afford that kind of car. A certain amount of people (like myself) won't pay that kind of money for a car on such a limited level of performance. Some who will won't because over $5K of that is dealer markup. I and many others can't justify spending that money when there are way better cars out there. I would have bought a used Viper, a Hellcat, a C7 Z06, or even a C6 ZR1 before paying that much for a Shelby. And the only reason they're even selling is because they are limited production and the people buying them obviously have money to throw around. That car is soo far out of the reach of most of the normal Mustang guys.

At $80k, I'm not even thinking Mustang. Maybe..............maybe the Super Snake. But, it depends on what kind of car I'm in the mood for.