Electric Vehicles

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

None of this affects purchase decisions people make today. People are not buying 2023 MY vehicles factoring in what may or may not happen in 2035. But people are buying enough EVs in 2023 that two of them are in the top 10 list of vehicles purchased. Some (not all) are getting incentives, but incentives are different than being “forced” to buy. Carrot or stick. Incentive is the carrot. Forcing is the stick. I see no sticks motivating buyers to purchase EV in 2023.

The stick portion is used at both the purchaser and manufacturer level. At the purchaser level you have gas guzzler taxes, fuel taxes, emissions tests, a plethora of ways that the government charges the consumer for using an ICE vehicle. At the manufacturer level you have ever increasing fuel efficiency standards. I believe the new light to medium duty standards are set to escalate so high that by 2027 or 2028 it will be impractical to manufacture and sell ICE vehicles. There's no need to make people buy BEV if you eliminate everything else.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

The stick portion is used at both the purchaser and manufacturer level. At the purchaser level you have gas guzzler taxes, fuel taxes, emissions tests, a plethora of ways that the government charges the consumer for using an ICE vehicle. At the manufacturer level you have ever increasing fuel efficiency standards. I believe the new light to medium duty standards are set to escalate so high that by 2027 or 2028 it will be impractical to manufacture and sell ICE vehicles. There's no need to make people buy BEV if you eliminate everything else.

Everything you said there is correct, but keep in mind every one of those sticks existed before electric vehicles became a thing. Electric vehicles aren’t the cause of all of those penalties, they are the result.

[Windycity]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

There is a huge difference between tax breaks, etc for corporations and direct subsidies to consumers. Huge difference.

I'm fine with whatever tax breaks corporations can get. I don't mind the drilling thing tax break and I don't particularly mind carbon credits. But the govt paying people to buy a favored product is a step too far regardless of what that product is.

That’s funny, your cool with some of the most profitable and powerful industries in the world receiving subsidies and tax breaks but totally against a consumer getting a rebate??


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[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Windycity

That’s funny, your cool with some of the most profitable and powerful industries in the world receiving subsidies and tax breaks but totally against a consumer getting a rebate??


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No, I'm totally against the government manipulating markets by use of direct consumer subsidies for favored industries. You should be too. Everybody should be.

[Windycity]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

No, I'm totally against the government manipulating markets by use of direct consumer subsidies for favored industries. You should be too. Everybody should be.

So your totally fine giving very profitable corporations huge tax breaks

And you don’t believe that is manipulating the markets??


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[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Windycity

So your totally fine giving very profitable corporations huge tax breaks

And you don’t believe that is manipulating the markets??


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Not to get too far off topic so this will be my last post on this tangent...

I'd be fine with no corporate tax. That would free up cash for investment which would make bigger and better companies which would hire more and more people who would pay more taxes.

Lets take your drilling tax break. Would you rather not have that break which would make it a lot more expensive to drill wells which would mean less wells which would mean less employment in an industry that pays very high wages? Because that's what you would have. Who loses? Not the company.

Tax breaks do not manipulate the market because in any given market all companies get the same breaks. An even playing field.

But let's say the govt decided it liked Exxon better than all the other oil companies and decided to give substantial rebates to people who purchased Exxon products. That, I think we can both agree, would be market manipulation.

Substitute Tesla for Exxon and car companies for oil companies and there you go, back on topic!

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

Not to get too far off topic so this will be my last post on this tangent...

I'd be fine with no corporate tax. That would free up cash for investment which would make bigger and better companies which would hire more and more people who would pay more taxes.

Lets take your drilling tax break. Would you rather not have that break which would make it a lot more expensive to drill wells which would mean less wells which would mean less employment in an industry that pays very high wages? Because that's what you would have. Who loses? Not the company.

Tax breaks do not manipulate the market because in any given market all companies get the same breaks. An even playing field.

But let's say the govt decided it liked Exxon better than all the other oil companies and decided to give substantial rebates to people who purchased Exxon products. That, I think we can both agree, would be market manipulation.

Substitute Tesla for Exxon and car companies for oil companies and there you go, back on topic!

Exxon is one of many oil companies that benefit from tax breaks.
Tesla is one of many companies that benefit from their customers receiving tax incentives.

One is good and one is bad? Really?

[Chrome383Z]

I just hope I can buy a gas car in a few years. I drive 210 miles round trip a day 3-4 times a week. Get home late so an EV is not going to charge up enough over night. Do not want to stop at a charging station for 30min on a 2hr trip. My Malibu gets 38mpg on highway, have 150k on her now, probably run it to 300k before I get something’s else.

[Windycity]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

One is good and one is bad? Really?

Yea the one HE likes is good and the other ones that HE doesn’t like are all bad


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[Windycity]

Originally Posted by Chrome383Z

I just hope I can buy a gas car in a few years. I drive 210 miles round trip a day 3-4 times a week. Get home late so an EV is not going to charge up enough over night. Do not want to stop at a charging station for 30min on a 2hr trip. My Malibu gets 38mpg on highway, have 150k on her now, probably run it to 300k before I get something’s else.

Gas cars are going to be available for many, many years into the future

If you have young children then maybe in their lifetime gas stations might be more difficult to find but I’m sure by the time you retire from your job you will still be driving all of those miles in a gas car if that’s your preference


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[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Chrome383Z

I just hope I can buy a gas car in a few years. I drive 210 miles round trip a day 3-4 times a week. Get home late so an EV is not going to charge up enough over night. Do not want to stop at a charging station for 30min on a 2hr trip. My Malibu gets 38mpg on highway, have 150k on her now, probably run it to 300k before I get something’s else.

For the most part we’ll see a market where EVs, HEVs, and a few ICE without any electrification will be available for the remainder of my time on this planet. I plan to be around for a few more decades. Where the big deal will fall is choice in specific segments. Sports cars and muscle cars are already feeling the pinch.

2035 is a big year, but not as big as some make it out to be. ICE are not gonna just magically disappear on Jan. 1, 2035. There are some companies (GM, VW, Volvo, Polestar, maybe Mercedes Benz) that are targeting 2035 as they year they go full EV for passenger vehicles. Commercial vehicles are a different story. Also, California, Massachusetts, Washington, and maybe New York will implement no new ICE sales in 2035. That’s not the whole country, so ICE will still be available in up to 47 other states. There is still time for more states to jump on the band wagon, but I expect most won’t.

[Windycity]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Where the big deal will fall is choice in specific segments. Sports cars and muscle cars are already feeling the pinch.
.

I agree with everything you said but I wouldn’t blame the decline of sports and muscle cars on EVs at all.

Realistically the muscle car crowd and racing in general has been on the decline for decades now.

Most people just are not into the car culture anymore like most of us remember


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[ZED SLED]

By 2035 you will own nothing and be happy.

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by Windycity

I agree with everything you said but I wouldn’t blame the decline of sports and muscle cars on EVs at all.

Realistically the muscle car crowd and racing in general has been on the decline for decades now.

Most people just are not into the car culture anymore like most of us remember

I hope synthetic fuels, e-fuel if you will, will help keep the V8 alive in racing. But as you said, with each year, less people care.