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Old 12-11-2017, 03:01 AM   #15
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None of that compares to replacing an Optispark on an LT1. You have to remove the water pump and the harmonic balancer/crank pulley. Fun times!
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Old 12-11-2017, 05:58 AM   #16
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I recently sold my 1994 S10 SS with a 5.7L Corvette Motor in it with OptiSpark. That set up scared the schitt out of me. I have to say the Gen 2 LT1 was an amazing motor and I liked features like reverse flow cooling and gear driven water pump, but that Optispark was in one hell of a spot. Of what I hear and read if you get any water on it Bye Bye Optispark.
Meanwhile where did they put it, directly under the Water Pump, WTF ?

I sold the truck primarily because of it. I just didnt like the set up and after reading so many horror storys it seemed it's only a matter of time before I would be pulling the entire front of the motor apart to change it, NOT.....
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Old 12-11-2017, 06:00 AM   #17
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Damn you GM for not making your cars so every job blow can easily change a thermostat. Bastards!


Haha! I doubt they even have the ASE certified GM tech in mind when designing a vehicle.
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Old 12-11-2017, 06:34 AM   #18
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They make a beautiful, fast car with a 5 star crash rating and somehow it’s not built like the LEGO Batmobile? Imagine that. GM please take notice and IGNORE this thread! You can’t possibly be expected to make every single part plug and play.

Honestly, if you want “easy to work on” then you’ll have to go back to the 220 HP motors of yesteryear mounted inside a land yacht. If you want 500 hp aerodynamic monsters of today, concessions have to be made.

But the guy working on a Model A was probably whining about how much easier it was to maintain a horse and buggy.
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Old 12-11-2017, 09:05 AM   #19
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Never in 40 years of working on cars have I ever read a manual where it says remove windscreen to change the heater matrix.
{yes I do know you can cheat on that one}
In comparison doing the Optispark on my 25th Anniversary Trans Am was an absolute breeze.
Some things you can forgive, other things you have to ask, what were they thinking.
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:40 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angrybird 12 View Post
I think this basic engine design started several years before the Camaro and used in front wheel drive vehicles like the Saturn Aura and the Impala. In that case there may have not been an issue with the thermostat location until it was adapted for the rear wheel drive vehicles like the CTS and Camaro. But I am probably wrong.
Ding Ding Ding We have a winner .
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Old 12-11-2017, 11:03 AM   #21
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Ding Ding Ding We have a winner .
Weren't the basic LS series motors around before the first FWD impala came out in 2000?
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Old 12-11-2017, 12:07 PM   #22
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Quote:
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You have to remember, these cars are designed by engineers who may or may not be car guys. These guys are the same ones who put a started under an intake manifold. I think it was the Northstar Cadillac engines that did that.
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Exactly. They get dimensions and specs. They don’t work on the car afterwards, so it doesn’t matter if it makes sense.
You're right, they don't work on the car after its built. And guess what? Neither do most owners. And when engineers do things right, for most parts on most cars, nobody has to do anything. Damn those engineers!

What benefit is there for GM to prioritize ease of maintenance over part cost, packaging (size), or assembly time? The only time maintenance ever affects them is if something goes wrong and they have to pay for it to get fixed under warranty. Otherwise, why should they ever care? Besides, they'd rather just design things so that it doesn't fail as often in the first place. Then it doesn't really matter how hard it is to get to.

You make it seem like its incompetence. That somehow ease of maintenance gets overlooked by mistake. No, it gets deliberately ignored. If they wanted to, they could design the car to come apart using only 2 wrenches and a minimum of 'extra' disassembly to get to other parts. But why would they do that, and would you be willing to pay the penalty in extra cost, weight, and bulk? Of course not.

In the end, GM want to sell new cars. If people who bought new cars actually valued fixing their cars themselves, they would seek out the cars which are easiest to fix. But they don't do that. Instead, people who buy new want performance and reliability and safety and style and not necessarily in that order.

Those that are most interested in doing self-repair buy used, and so the sale means absolutely nothing to the original manufacturer. So again, why would they cater to that group? To be nice? There are an awful lot more ways GM could be nice to their actual paying customers that would cost less and be more appreciated than making the thermostat on the V6 in the 5th gen Camaro easy to get to.
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Old 12-11-2017, 12:14 PM   #23
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You have to remember, these cars are designed by engineers who may or may not be car guys. These guys are the same ones who put a started under an intake manifold. I think it was the Northstar Cadillac engines that did that.

Lexus did the same thing!
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Old 12-11-2017, 01:10 PM   #24
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Not as dumb as replacing the heater core on the v8, most absurd thing in decades. :(
The heater core replacement for my '02 Silverado is the reason I drive a Camaro today: The shop wanted $1500 for the heater core replacement, but some friends offered to help me do it over a few days. I rented a car for this time, the cheapest lil' roller skate/ Korean car that I could find. When I went to pick the car up, the rental agent and I walked past a bitchin' yellow Camaro. I joked that she should just let me take THIS one, instead of the econobox. The girl said, "Sure... why not... the guy who reserved that car never showed up."

When I told her that I was only joking, and that I couldn't afford the Camaro, she said that she was fine with giving it to me for the same price as the Kia.

I kept it for a week, and found it very hard to part with... very hard.

The next day, I went out and bought one exactly like my rental. Six years later, and I'm still in the honeymoon phase.

(I did get the heater core replaced on the Silverado... had to disassemble the truck all the way down to the molecular level. Took three long evenings, with the three of us, including one ASE certified tech. I've swapped heater cores before that took 30 minutes... that Silverado heater core was at the OPPOSITE end of the difficulty spectrum...)
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Old 12-11-2017, 02:28 PM   #25
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I run into a lot of difficult things to repair on GM vehicles daily. Some are worse than others, and some don't even make sense as to why it is the way it is. Mostly it comes down to cost to manufacture. Does a certain design cost less to manufacture/machine/install? But ultimately cars get easier to work on through their lifespan, then change and start all over again. Some jobs suck, others are incredibly easy. The thermostat on the 3.6L can suck, but there are much worse things to change. I recently replaced the entire high pressure fuel system on a 15 Duramax because the high pressure fuel pump ate itself. The cab came off of the truck so I could access everything that needed to be replaced, that's a tough job.
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(exaggerated example) omg they said my car is slow cause its a v6 isn't this surreal

followed by empathetic but also some genuine comments but mostly nut sucking the v6 owner
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Old 12-11-2017, 02:52 PM   #26
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Most new engineers have only seen it in text books or computers and will never get grease under their fingernails in their whole life. Fewer people know anything about what they drive and live in than ever before - we have become a world of specialist. That is still no excuse for automotive engineers to not think of how their vehicles are going to be maintained.

The location could be because of thermodynamic models to keep the engine from having hot spots or hydro dynamics for smoother coolant flow and not because of ease of maintenance. Lets face it, a more technically advanced engine has more shit packed into its bag and there may not have been room to put it in a better to maintain place.

Yes, I have to admit it - I have an engineering degree. I have always worked on cars but deliberately don't keep old ones around that need as much maintenance. I find its better to make a monthly payment than pay more a month for repairs to keep a heap going. A lesson I learned early in life.
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Old 12-11-2017, 05:33 PM   #27
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Is this only on the 2010 Camaro they did this to? Or is it the same for the later V6 models as well?
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Old 12-11-2017, 07:36 PM   #28
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Weren't the basic LS series motors around before the first FWD impala came out in 2000?
Actually I think I'm wrong. Doing a little looking and the first 3.6 LLT was in a Caddy CTS 2004. They were used in a couple of Front wheel drive cars also around 08 or 09.
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