Why The ZL1 is better than an EV

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by ohsmily

Apologists? Seriously? They're merely responding to the sheer volume of ignorance, hyperbole, and stupidity regarding EVs. This is a discussion forum and someone started this thread regarding EVs.

I love my ZL1 and EVs have limitations, but there is a recurring theme of the seeming toothless redneck asserting nonsense.

Also, when did some of you learn that adding an apostrophe s to a word or item makes it plural? I don't get it.

Calling people (or their opinions) "toothless redneck asserting nonsense" is certainly the best way to convince them about EVs... All this condescending attitude does is harden people, and, in fact, none of us knows who's who on these forums. You'd be surprised who some of those you're calling rednecks actually are.

Originally Posted by ohsmily

While EVs have limitations, some of which are magnified in certain geographic regions, much of the criticism is reminiscent of arguments likely made in the early 1900s. " these motorized coaches are temperamental and no one knows how to fix them! You can't find fuel anywhere! My horse runs on hay and water and they can just graze grass in a pinch! Let's see a motorized carriage do that! Nothing will ever replace the beauty of my stallion and the pride of ownership I have of owning such a magnificent animal! The sound of my animal's hooves during a full gallop is something to behold! Down with these smokey, loud, unreliable machines!"

I have found no evidence of these arguments ever made back in the day, they are a figment of your bumbling imagination. If a technology is better than its predecessor, it will win on its own merit. If it's absolutely better for every scenario, it will win in absolutely every corner of the market. There is no need to regulate it into existence and pump tax money into it, which has been happening for over a decade now, yet the uptake is still slow.

There is also no need for the typical absolutist, zero sum mindset on cars and trucks, I don't understand why the One True Winning Technology must exist, everything else is therefore "legacy" and be damned. EVs aren't even new, electric motor technology is older than internal combustion engines (ie these developments occur in cycles, it isn't simply "ICE ancient, EV modern"), plus everything in life is a tradeoff and not all people are alike, so it's entirely plausible that some would prefer this and others that, quite unlike the uniform outcome your makeshift horse analogy implies.

This entire topic is complex and nuanced, and I'm neither pro-EV or anti-EV: I do see the utility of these appliances for several purposes and their appeal to people who couldn't care less about the driving experience but want all the creature comforts they can get. However, this is a Camaro forum, I don't understand why several members feel the need to gush about EVs. I don't register on a Tesla forum and repeatedly tell them the ways I think the Camaro is superior to their cars either... okay, this is a semi-EV thread, I'll give you that, but the apologetics definitely aren't limited to it.

[Camfab]

I’m not sure why people are so damn negative these days. You’re either a car guy or you’re not. End of story. I love all things mechanical period. Anyone who loves to haul ass and is poo pooing a Plaid has A) never driven one or B) just plain jealous
It’s all about speed and nothing but speed from the beginning of time. I’m going to say 99.9% of all Camaro owners, myself 100% want a faster car. This has been true from the moment any half crazed man has stepped into any machine, whether it be powered by gasoline, alcohol, nitro, solid rocket engines, and now electric motors. Pull your damn heads out of your rear end, this is the greatest Moment in automotive history. Enjoy it.
As a point of fact, the Tesla model Y is the #1 selling car in the World. This is a fact versus the news generated false narratives that no one wants an EV.

[ohsmily]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Calling people (or their opinions) "toothless redneck asserting nonsense" is certainly the best way to convince them about EVs... All this condescending attitude does is harden people, and, in fact, none of us knows who's who on these forums. You'd be surprised who some of those you're calling rednecks actually are.



I have found no evidence of these arguments ever made back in the day, they are a figment of your bumbling imagination. If a technology is better than its predecessor, it will win on its own merit. If it's absolutely better for every scenario, it will win in absolutely every corner of the market. There is no need to regulate it into existence and pump tax money into it, which has been happening for over a decade now, yet the uptake is still slow.

There is also no need for the typical absolutist, zero sum mindset on cars and trucks, I don't understand why the One True Winning Technology must exist, everything else is therefore "legacy" and be damned. EVs aren't even new, electric motor technology is older than internal combustion engines (ie these developments occur in cycles, it isn't simply "ICE ancient, EV modern"), plus everything in life is a tradeoff and not all people are alike, so it's entirely plausible that some would prefer this and others that, quite unlike the uniform outcome your makeshift horse analogy implies.

This entire topic is complex and nuanced, and I'm neither pro-EV or anti-EV: I do see the utility of these appliances for several purposes and their appeal to people who couldn't care less about the driving experience but want all the creature comforts they can get. However, this is a Camaro forum, I don't understand why several members feel the need to gush about EVs. I don't register on a Tesla forum and repeatedly tell them the ways I think the Camaro is superior to their cars either... okay, this is a semi-EV thread, I'll give you that, but the apologetics definitely aren't limited to it.

I appreciate your response.

I found parts of these articles amusing with some of the laws and restrictions anti-automobile towns passed to curtail cars...definitely some anti-car people/places!

https://dangerousminds.net/comments/...e_introduction

https://brewminate.com/growing-pains...ed-then-loved/

[Camfab]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Calling people (or their opinions) "toothless redneck asserting nonsense" is certainly the best way to convince them about EVs... All this condescending attitude does is harden people, and, in fact, none of us knows who's who on these forums. You'd be surprised who some of those you're calling rednecks actually are.



I have found no evidence of these arguments ever made back in the day, they are a figment of your bumbling imagination. If a technology is better than its predecessor, it will win on its own merit. If it's absolutely better for every scenario, it will win in absolutely every corner of the market. There is no need to regulate it into existence and pump tax money into it, which has been happening for over a decade now, yet the uptake is still slow.

There is also no need for the typical absolutist, zero sum mindset on cars and trucks, I don't understand why the One True Winning Technology must exist, everything else is therefore "legacy" and be damned. EVs aren't even new, electric motor technology is older than internal combustion engines (ie these developments occur in cycles, it isn't simply "ICE ancient, EV modern"), plus everything in life is a tradeoff and not all people are alike, so it's entirely plausible that some would prefer this and others that, quite unlike the uniform outcome your makeshift horse analogy implies.

This entire topic is complex and nuanced, and I'm neither pro-EV or anti-EV: I do see the utility of these appliances for several purposes and their appeal to people who couldn't care less about the driving experience but want all the creature comforts they can get. However, this is a Camaro forum, I don't understand why several members feel the need to gush about EVs. I don't register on a Tesla forum and repeatedly tell them the ways I think the Camaro is superior to their cars either... okay, this is a semi-EV thread, I'll give you that, but the apologetics definitely aren't limited to it.

Here’s a few observations, this started as why the Camaro is better than an ev , not vice versa. I don’t see a single person putting down ice here, just saying the Teslas are great cars. You say why does one tech have to go away while another replaces it. I agree and I believe everyone else here agrees as well. You call the EV an appliance, that’s funny but you also state it’s for people who don’t enjoy the driving experience. What exactly is that experience you claim to be non existent in a Tesla? I can say that the same thing, why are you driving an automatic, clearly you don’t really understand what it means to have real control of your car. I personally prefer manuals and always hated automatic cars. I drove the 10 spd and thought it was awesome, but I still prefer a manual. I’d never say to you, that you clearly aren’t interested in a real drivers car, that’s totally lame. The same holds true with an EV. Don’t be the guy you’re claiming not to be. Enjoy what’s out there in every form and don’t judge others. Like I said, in the end it’s really all about hauling butt.
Drive a Plaid, I think it’ll put a new perspective in your mind.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by White1SS

EV's are already throw away items. Much like a refrigerator and condenser, once the warranty expires, it simply cost's too much to repair their primary parts. Who would spend 20k-30k to install a new battery in a 10 year old EV with 150k miles?


What if one or more of the motors needs to be replaced ? I have no idea, but the best I can tell it's somewhere between 6k-20K ?


With an EV, keep it until the warranty expires and then sell it. If not, keep it and run it until something goes wrong, at which time hire someone to haul it out of your driveway and recycle it.

It doesn't cost that much to replace a battery, that price you keep throwing out there was from an old obsolete Chevy Volt that no one drives anymore. Tesla battery replacements don't cost nearly that much and like I said before, by the time comes for you to replace a battery pack, either the car will be depreciated enough to make it cost effective to replace the battery or batteries will be even cheaper. Is it really any different than a dealer trying to sell used vehicle with 200K miles on it? The value is going to be very low and if you choose to buy that vehicle at that significantly reduced cost, you know what you're getting and the potential costs of having the engine and transmission rebuilt, replaced, along with all the other mechanical parts that are probably worn out and need replacing. With an EV, there's almost no parts that need to be replaced other than the battery pack.

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shoppin...to-be-replaced

You really should educate yourself on this instead of just spreading anti-EV FUD.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by Camfab

Here’s a few observations, this started as why the Camaro is better than an ev , not vice versa. I don’t see a single person putting down ice here, just saying the Teslas are great cars. You say why does one tech have to go away while another replaces it. I agree and I believe everyone else here agrees as well. You call the EV an appliance, that’s funny but you also state it’s for people who don’t enjoy the driving experience. What exactly is that experience you claim to be non existent in a Tesla? I can say that the same thing, why are you driving an automatic, clearly you don’t really understand what it means to have real control of your car. I personally prefer manuals and always hated automatic cars. I drove the 10 spd and thought it was awesome, but I still prefer a manual. I’d never say to you, that you clearly aren’t interested in a real drivers car, that’s totally lame. The same holds true with an EV. Don’t be the guy you’re claiming not to be. Enjoy what’s out there in every form and don’t judge others. Like I said, in the end it’s really all about hauling butt.
Drive a Plaid, I think it’ll put a new perspective in your mind.

100%

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by ohsmily

I appreciate your response.

I found parts of these articles amusing with some of the laws and restrictions anti-automobile towns passed to curtail cars...definitely some anti-car people/places!

https://dangerousminds.net/comments/...e_introduction

https://brewminate.com/growing-pains...ed-then-loved/

The second link was interesting, thanks (the first one had broken references to youtube and other sites, but the content is essentially the same as the site behind the second link anyway).

It's difficult to gauge the true magnitude of this resistance, as both of your sources claim the same small farmers' group in PA with their suggestions of laws focused on equestrian quality of life... but naturally there is always a level of resistance to every new technology, and, depending on how much superior it is to existing alternatives, the better the new, the less forceful the resistance.

What I don't read about, however, is how the government would've used taxpayers' money to buttress the automobile in the early 1900s and then legislate horses out of existence. Many sensible laws were introduced to regulate the increased volume and speed of traffic, but somehow the market solved the problem of horse manure accumulation on city streets on its own. Not even did NYC bring forth any legislation to ban horse carriages, and state or federal mandates certainly didn't exist.

Originally Posted by Camfab

Here’s a few observations, this started as why the Camaro is better than an ev , not vice versa. I don’t see a single person putting down ice here, just saying the Teslas are great cars. You say why does one tech have to go away while another replaces it. I agree and I believe everyone else here agrees as well. You call the EV an appliance, that’s funny but you also state it’s for people who don’t enjoy the driving experience. What exactly is that experience you claim to be non existent in a Tesla? I can say that the same thing, why are you driving an automatic, clearly you don’t really understand what it means to have real control of your car. I personally prefer manuals and always hated automatic cars. I drove the 10 spd and thought it was awesome, but I still prefer a manual. I’d never say to you, that you clearly aren’t interested in a real drivers car, that’s totally lame. The same holds true with an EV. Don’t be the guy you’re claiming not to be. Enjoy what’s out there in every form and don’t judge others. Like I said, in the end it’s really all about hauling butt.
Drive a Plaid, I think it’ll put a new perspective in your mind.

Heh, I knew someone would eventually bring up the A8 It was a difficult decision, but you know what, I admit to not being a 100% hardcore car guy, I learned to drive on a small manual Ford, then drove stick for quite a while, but apart from the 3-2 downshift, never enjoyed it that much, so an automatic was always an option for me when buying a vehicle.

The experience to me is the overall package, starting with the exterior (Teslas look butt ugly to me, except for the practically non-existent Roadster), then the interior (little to no gauge cluster, no physical controls and a ginormous screen in the middle is an automatic no from me, if I want to interact with a big screen, I have a 49" monitor sitting on my desk, thank you), engine characteristics, responsiveness, acceleration, sound and vibrations, fuel economy etc.

My overall experience score for a Camaro as a fun vehicle is much higher than for a Tesla, even though it is arguably much quicker and accelerates harder than my car from a dead stop. To me it's always about the overall experience, not just one factor magnified to the sky to make sure our favorite "horse" wins. Now, however, if we talk about an inner city commuter pod, I wouldn't want to waste a Camaro on that and would seriously consider a plug-in hybrid or EV.

I don't have money to burn on a Plaid, but I'm sure it's incredibly fast in a straight line, the few EVs I tried were dogs compared to it.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

The second link was interesting, thanks (the first one had broken references to youtube and other sites, but the content is essentially the same as the site behind the second link anyway).

It's difficult to gauge the true magnitude of this resistance, as both of your sources claim the same small farmers' group in PA with their suggestions of laws focused on equestrian quality of life... but naturally there is always a level of resistance to every new technology, and, depending on how much superior it is to existing alternatives, the better the new, the less forceful the resistance.

What I don't read about, however, is how the government would've used taxpayers' money to buttress the automobile in the early 1900s and then legislate horses out of existence. Many sensible laws were introduced to regulate the increased volume and speed of traffic, but somehow the market solved the problem of horse manure accumulation on city streets on its own. Not even did NYC bring forth any legislation to ban horse carriages, and state or federal mandates certainly didn't exist.


Heh, I knew someone would eventually bring up the A8 It was a difficult decision, but you know what, I admit to not being a 100% hardcore car guy, I learned to drive on a small manual Ford, then drove stick for quite a while, but apart from the 3-2 downshift, never enjoyed it that much, so an automatic was always an option for me when buying a vehicle.

The experience to me is the overall package, starting with the exterior (Teslas look butt ugly to me, except for the practically non-existent Roadster), then the interior (little to no gauge cluster, no physical controls and a ginormous screen in the middle is an automatic no from me, if I want to interact with a big screen, I have a 49" monitor sitting on my desk, thank you), engine characteristics, responsiveness, acceleration, sound and vibrations, fuel economy etc.

My overall experience score for a Camaro as a fun vehicle is much higher than for a Tesla, even though it is arguably much quicker and accelerates harder than my car from a dead stop. To me it's always about the overall experience, not just one factor magnified to the sky to make sure our favorite "horse" wins. Now, however, if we talk about an inner city commuter pod, I wouldn't want to waste a Camaro on that and would seriously consider a plug-in hybrid or EV.

I don't have money to burn on a Plaid, but I'm sure it's incredibly fast in a straight line, the few EVs I tried were dogs compared to it.

The thing is a Model S Plaid is not only quick in a straight line but its also corners amazingly well, better than a Camaro SS or ZL1, only a ZL1 1LE has an advantage. It pulls 1.08g on the skidpad.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

This is ALL part of what makes these vehicles amazingly fun to drive. The only thing you're "missing" is the sound of an ICE. There are pros and cons to that also, there's something amazingly fun about being so quick and stealthy. In the Plaid you can punch the throttle anywhere when you want to have fun without notifying everyone and every LEO in a 1/2 mile radius.

[Camfab]

The first ride I had in a Plaid, I literally got tunnel vision. When we slowed down some 50 yds down the road people were walking their dog. Nobody even had a clue what had just transpired. A 9.5 second Muscle car would have had every neighbor on the “Nextdoor site” screaming bloody murder as well as every cop in town.
I love a screaming V-8 but man it’s nice to have some cover when you have that kind of power. It’s great to have options.

[clg82]

Originally Posted by ohsmily

Apologists? Seriously? They're merely responding to the sheer volume of ignorance, hyperbole, and stupidity regarding EVs. This is a discussion forum and someone started this thread regarding EVs.

I love my ZL1 and EVs have limitations, but there is a recurring theme of the seeming toothless redneck asserting nonsense.

Also, when did some of you learn that adding an apostrophe s to a word or item makes it plural? I don't get it.

Responses like this from people like you that live where you do, are the reason people with common sense are leaving your state in droves.

[GreenZLE]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

"But, trust us, you don't want to do 200 mph in this car. Even 162 mph was terrifying, wandering and nervous to the point that we were concerned about our ability to shepherd it between lane lines."
and
"Although our braking regimen isn't nearly as severe as what a racetrack demands, a warning message reporting the brakes' demise popped up on the dash. Between the flappability at high speeds and the iffy brakes, our helmets are way off to former FIA GT racing driver Andreas Simonsen, who piloted the Plaid to what must have been a harrowing 7:35 Nürburgring lap."

I LOL'd at this!

It sounds like they're superior in short bursts but not something you want to beat on lap after lap.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

My single point is that EVs have a higher penetration rate in Canada than they do in the US. Period. All the points you make are true and are contributory to the fact that Canada has a higher EV take rate than the US EVEN THOUGH it is a colder climate. So the idea that EV doesn’t work in colder climates is not consistent with their popularity in Canada. Then there’s Norway, Sweden, etc that have been using high volumes of EV for years. Guess they didn’t get the memo that EVs don’t work in cold weather.

They don't work in cold weather unless in the circumstances I provided. That has been proven by those who LOVE EVs.

Long trips in the cold - NO
Outside cold weather parking - NO
Long charge times for batteries outside in ambient temps - YES

If you are going to make posts about cold weather usage , at least acknowledge the facts about batteries, charging, and range depletion. This isn't opinion at all.

[clg82]

Originally Posted by Camfab

I’m not sure why people are so damn negative these days. You’re either a car guy or you’re not. End of story. I love all things mechanical period. Anyone who loves to haul ass and is poo pooing a Plaid has A) never driven one or B) just plain jealous
It’s all about speed and nothing but speed from the beginning of time. I’m going to say 99.9% of all Camaro owners, myself 100% want a faster car. This has been true from the moment any half crazed man has stepped into any machine, whether it be powered by gasoline, alcohol, nitro, solid rocket engines, and now electric motors. Pull your damn heads out of your rear end, this is the greatest Moment in automotive history. Enjoy it.
As a point of fact, the Tesla model Y is the #1 selling car in the World. This is a fact versus the news generated false narratives that no one wants an EV.

You can't be serious....

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by CalgaryZL1

Unfortunately, first world governments want that to be now not the future just like infrastructure later not now, it’s always the cart before the horse always always always don’t ever come to Canada with your EV because you will be towitg lt home, literally the only charge stations I see in public view is where I pick up my Camaro parts at the dealership

Most EV owners only need a public charging station when they are traveling beyond the full charge range of their car. Ironically, the only time I’ve ever used a public charger was in Canada. My car directly maps me to them when I need one. And in that case I had a choice of several. I was able to pick the one I wanted based on the rate speed of the chargers and how many were available. All of that information is displayed to my car.