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Old 04-07-2011, 08:56 AM   #211
themossman
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So any like "official" update yet, whats the verdict so far? Or are you just paying to fix it and thats it?
I'm going to be fixing it. I'm not likely to pursue this in a manner which would result in additional expense on my part and I'm going to keep an eye on how much time I invest in efforts as well.

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as has been so resolutely .....just sayin!
I'm pretty sure personal attacks are frowned upon on this form.

My knuckleheads comment was meant in a lighthearted nature.
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Last edited by themossman; 04-07-2011 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:09 AM   #212
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I know, that here at my dealership (not GM) if you have been as straight forward as you have, and they have been the same. We would have probably goodwilled the work. I cant speak for your dealership but at least they didnt take your bottom end out and stick it in your back seat (just for diagnosis). If I have been course in my previous posts I apologize. I hope everything works out in some way or another for you.
So.... your telling us that "your dealership" would eat the cost of parts and labor on this?? When you say "your Dealership"..does that mean you own the dealership?...How can you make a statement like that?...are you guessing? I don't think there are too many dealerships out there who are willing to take a $1500.00 hit just because your a straight forward guy. I'm not looking for an argument here Bungo, I just don't know how you can say "you know" they would "good will" the warranty.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:37 AM   #213
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A dealership doesn't necessarily have to eat the cost of repairs. First of all, an oil pump replacement requires zero approval. Do work, submit claim, claim pays. Secondly if they do get their rep involved, and do the whole report the calibration/block the warranty thing... that only "blocks" unauthorized claims. Who is to say, the tech couldn't tear the engine down, do a root cause diagnosis... and if it is a factory defect - then contact the rep and request approval based on the problem is a documented defect and not modification caused.

When I was a dealer tech, we did that on several occasions. Just have to have your ducks in a row and all the facts documented. Not unheard of for a dealer to go to bat and request assistance from the rep for a situation the customer is deserving of help with. If then diagnose it as modification caused, then of course the customer is no question responsible for that bill.

Read the bulletin closely. "Unauthorized" claims under the "remaining warranty" are blocked if they do the report the modded calibration thing. Exact quoted words from the bulletin.

So then - under what circumstances would claims be "authorized". I would think a reasonable person might assume - factory defects.

First step though is to tear it down and diagnose the facts of what is really wrong. And on a modified car, probably going to need to pay out of pocket for that. Then go from there on what to do based on the facts of what is really diagnosed, parts in hand, bulletins in hand.... ask for them to review the facts with their rep.

If they've reviewed it before even a tear down/diagnosis... I'd be not so happy about that. And when the facts do come in - if it is a factory defect - pursue it further with BBB arbitration.
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:29 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Russell James View Post
A dealership doesn't necessarily have to eat the cost of repairs. First of all, an oil pump replacement requires zero approval. Do work, submit claim, claim pays. Secondly if they do get their rep involved, and do the whole report the calibration/block the warranty thing... that only "blocks" unauthorized claims. Who is to say, the tech couldn't tear the engine down, do a root cause diagnosis... and if it is a factory defect - then contact the rep and request approval based on the problem is a documented defect and not modification caused.

When I was a dealer tech, we did that on several occasions. Just have to have your ducks in a row and all the facts documented. Not unheard of for a dealer to go to bat and request assistance from the rep for a situation the customer is deserving of help with. If then diagnose it as modification caused, then of course the customer is no question responsible for that bill.

Read the bulletin closely. "Unauthorized" claims under the "remaining warranty" are blocked if they do the report the modded calibration thing. Exact quoted words from the bulletin.

So then - under what circumstances would claims be "authorized". I would think a reasonable person might assume - factory defects.

First step though is to tear it down and diagnose the facts of what is really wrong. And on a modified car, probably going to need to pay out of pocket for that. Then go from there on what to do based on the facts of what is really diagnosed, parts in hand, bulletins in hand.... ask for them to review the facts with their rep.

If they've reviewed it before even a tear down/diagnosis... I'd be not so happy about that. And when the facts do come in - if it is a factory defect - pursue it further with BBB arbitration.
You've read into it way too far.

The message from the first post from GM says the warranty is void on the powertrain, period. All claims are unauthorized. Authorized claims would be like if the power window motor craps out, or the hvac system dies.

As well the GM warranty is clear on if the car is modded, the warranty is done. Don't forget that not every car has this issue, no every oil pump failed, so for the dealer to tear things down, find out its not the issue, then charge the customer, he may balk at that and the dealer is out the money/time to diagnose/etc.

In this case being that the parts that directly drive the oil pump were replaced, there may be no way to determine if the failure was related to that or a defect. Aside from the fact if the car was never modified the defect may never have shown itself. Remember this was a TSB NOT a recall which legally theres a big difference in what the dealer/GM is required to do.

They made things very simple, the warranty is void, so you need to pay for the diagnosis/repair, and they said it upfront, if you don't want to they aren't going to diagnose your car for free, just like any other shop wouldn't either.

Finally the reason things are so simple, direct, and rigid is that for too many years dealers have likely been getting shafted by customers, GM, or both. Its the easiest way to avoid a gray area that ends up costing someone more money.
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:50 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Rogue Leader View Post
You've read into it way too far.

The message from the first post from GM says the warranty is void on the powertrain, period. All claims are unauthorized. Authorized claims would be like if the power window motor craps out, or the hvac system dies.

As well the GM warranty is clear on if the car is modded, the warranty is done. Don't forget that not every car has this issue, no every oil pump failed, so for the dealer to tear things down, find out its not the issue, then charge the customer, he may balk at that and the dealer is out the money/time to diagnose/etc.

In this case being that the parts that directly drive the oil pump were replaced, there may be no way to determine if the failure was related to that or a defect. Aside from the fact if the car was never modified the defect may never have shown itself. Remember this was a TSB NOT a recall which legally theres a big difference in what the dealer/GM is required to do.

They made things very simple, the warranty is void, so you need to pay for the diagnosis/repair, and they said it upfront, if you don't want to they aren't going to diagnose your car for free, just like any other shop wouldn't either.

Finally the reason things are so simple, direct, and rigid is that for too many years dealers have likely been getting shafted by customers, GM, or both. Its the easiest way to avoid a gray area that ends up costing someone more money.
The oil pump is driven by the crankshaft. Did he replace the crankshaft with an aftermarket crank with a defective oil pump drive? I would have no problem diagnosing a defective pump vs a pump damaged by something else. The service manual describes how to check the pressure relief valve, as does the bulletin describe a stuck relief valve condition.

Show me the word "void" in the calibration bulletin. Doesn't exist. They "block" the warranty from "unauthorized" claims. Technically meeting the MM Act requirements of not voiding the warranty. The warranty is still there, just any claims will require authorization. Ask your dealer what "unauthorized" claims mean if you don't understand. It's claims that their rep will not authorize.
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:57 AM   #216
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You've read into it way too far.
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Originally Posted by Russell James View Post
When I was a dealer tech, we did that on several occasions. .

I tend to lean towards the precedence of someone that has the experience in dealing with this type of situation.

From what I've read regarding this situation, my money is on Mossman. However, that depends on how far he is willing to push this issue, and what the diagnosis is with the oil pump.

M
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:19 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Mark Myles View Post
I tend to lean towards the precedence of someone that has the experience in dealing with this type of situation.

From what I've read regarding this situation, my money is on Mossman. However, that depends on how far he is willing to push this issue, and what the diagnosis is with the oil pump.

M
As a dealer tech in the past I can tell you that it USED to happen...Today's GM is much different than even 9 years ago when I was wrenching. My friends who still teach GM ASEP and deal with students currently working at dealerships have heard quite a bit about it... The techs I used to work with tell me that things are "different" now too...
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:23 AM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell James View Post
The oil pump is driven by the crankshaft. Did he replace the crankshaft with an aftermarket crank with a defective oil pump drive? I would have no problem diagnosing a defective pump vs a pump damaged by something else. The service manual describes how to check the pressure relief valve, as does the bulletin describe a stuck relief valve condition.

Show me the word "void" in the calibration bulletin. Doesn't exist. They "block" the warranty from "unauthorized" claims. Technically meeting the MM Act requirements of not voiding the warranty. The warranty is still there, just any claims will require authorization. Ask your dealer what "unauthorized" claims mean if you don't understand. It's claims that their rep will not authorize.
He replaced the timing chain, attached to the crank shaft which is also attached to the cam (also replaced).

Also read the specific note from GM from the first post

Quote:
Powertrain portion of the Vehicle Warranty is no longer in effect for the engine, transmission, driveline and rear axle on 2G1FT1EWXA9111238 due to the presence of non GM calibrations and equipment.
I'm sure it can be physically diagnosed by a good tech, but my point is it all comes down to dollars and cents. If they took apart every car to determine whether it was the aftermarket parts that caused the failure or a defect GM would be on the hook to the dealer for a lot of diagnostic time. And/or pissed off customers when they say "sorry its not authorized due to aftermarket parts, pay us for the repair/diag time or get your car back in pieces". Many of us would understand that situation, but this is a small community compared to the real world who would immediately flip out and lawyer up. Its cheaper and easier to just say no, as well as the fact that it a TSB not a recall so they only even have an obligation to perform the check or repair if its what caused the failure.

Is it fair? Well it actually kinda sucks for the customer, its fair for the dealer, and GM makes out in the end.

As for the semantics about how its handled its as simple as, all warranty repairs for anything need to be authorized, if the dealer tries to authorize a repair on the drivetrain when theres the block that he has it won't be so the dealer is on the hook. Its as simple as that, I understand it, I don't need you to explain it to me.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:48 AM   #219
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So.... your telling us that "your dealership" would eat the cost of parts and labor on this?? When you say "your Dealership"..does that mean you own the dealership?...How can you make a statement like that?...are you guessing? I don't think there are too many dealerships out there who are willing to take a $1500.00 hit just because your a straight forward guy. I'm not looking for an argument here Bungo, I just don't know how you can say "you know" they would "good will" the warranty.
I work at "my" dealership and a MFG (depends on which one) allows a certain amount of "goodwill" money to go towards repairs which would be possibly just ouf of warranty, or discretionary spending for customer satisfaction, wherin maybe the dealership cant warranty something due to customer damage but will "goodwill" it so that the customer will keep returning and do more business with the dealership.
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Old 04-07-2011, 04:11 PM   #220
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Understood..and that's great customer service..it would be nice if the General himself felt that way too
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Old 04-07-2011, 04:58 PM   #221
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As a dealer tech in the past I can tell you that it USED to happen...Today's GM is much different than even 9 years ago when I was wrenching. My friends who still teach GM ASEP and deal with students currently working at dealerships have heard quite a bit about it... The techs I used to work with tell me that things are "different" now too...
Ahhh, you are so true....business was easier and fun back in the 80's & 90's, not so much today....

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Old 04-07-2011, 05:00 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Bungo View Post
I work at "my" dealership and a MFG (depends on which one) allows a certain amount of "goodwill" money to go towards repairs which would be possibly just ouf of warranty, or discretionary spending for customer satisfaction, wherin maybe the dealership cant warranty something due to customer damage but will "goodwill" it so that the customer will keep returning and do more business with the dealership.
Glad to see the great customer service! My hat's off to you sir!

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Old 04-11-2011, 02:46 PM   #223
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Well...after digging into the car, I think I owe GM and 'thank you' for the oil pump failure.

I was able to get the oil pump out on Saturday with relatively little incident...however...I noticed that the timing chain tensioner was appeared broken. Sure enough it was broken at both the top and bottom and to my misery the top piece was MIA. After pulling the cam sprocket, I found the missing piece in one of the block voids behind the cam sprocket....PHEW! You can see in one of the pics below that if it had 'plinko'd' a little bit further it would have dropped into the cam shaft.

After realizing that I would need a replacement tensioner...I put the wrenches down and began researching. I had heard of issues with this tensioner before and there's vicious debates about what might cause it's failures. More importantly, I saw additional pictures of other failed tensioners and realized that I was missing a piece....see video below for the 'new' location of said missing piece....

if the oil pump had not failed...I could have had a another issue altogether...

I'll be switching to the LS2 dampner and NOT installing the LS3 tensioner...

Oh...and yes, it turned out the oil pump pressure valve was stuck. :P


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Old 04-11-2011, 04:05 PM   #224
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WOW!! Close call!!
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