COPO ZL-1 for Sale - huh???

[f5journal]

Does anyone know more detail on the history of this car? The auction ended at $250,000....but not necessarily sold

By reading the description, it leaves me wondering just how much if any of the car is original from the factory and tied to the VIN, yet Reggie Jackson owned it.

How do you mate an original ZL-1 with another '69 body? The front subframe and motor is all that's real???. It never really says that the drivetrain is original to the original car that had or used to have another body either.

I'm fully aware of having a title and paperwork and the cowl tag from something that is now dust, and making a traceable car out of it.....is that what this is and still brings this kind of money?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-COPO-ZL-1-Ultra-Rare-1969-COPO-ZL-1-Camaro-/331141175628?forcerrptr=true&hash=item4d198d594c&i tem=331141175628&pt=US_Cars_Trucks#ht_3393wt_1298




The first owner of this ZL-1 was Dick Tutino then service manager at Alan Green Chevrolet.

In the late 1970's early 80's the car was mated with another 69 Camaro body.

In 2008 the car was treated to a full restoration and brought back to original Fathom Green exterior with black interior. It is truly in almost perfect condition!
Previous Owners:
Richard Tutino, WA
Jim Bruns, WA
Charles Shartin, WA
Paul Sievers, IN
Reggie “Mr October” Jackson, CA (MLB Hall of Famer)

[ClawSS]

Didn't Reggie have a big fire that hurt a bunch of his cars?

<edit> Reggie Jackson fire in 1988.

[f5journal]

This car is listed again and maybe the owner read this thread...ha...he explains in much more detail now exactly what has happened and what it is. (The last 4-5 paragraphs are all new)

1969 Camaro COPO ZL1

This Fathom Green ZL-1 Camaro was 1 of 50 Camaros ordered by the late Fred Gibb in November 1968. Due to the excessive cost of the ZL-1 option, this car was returned to Norwood, OH for redistribution by Joe Pike.

Alan Green Chevrolet, Seattle, WA to delivery of the Camaro in the latter part of 1969.

The first owner of this ZL-1 was Dick Tutino then service manager at Alan Green Chevrolet.

Dick mentioned that this ZL-1 ran in the NHRA Super Stock class, sponsored by Alan Green Chevrolet and Boeing Company. The ZL-1 ran a best quarter mile time of 11.08 @127 MPH.

In the late 1970's early 80's the car was mated with another 69 Camaro body.

In 2008 the car was treated to a full restoration and brought back to original Fathom Green exterior with black interior. It is truly in almost perfect condition!

This Fathom Green ZL-1 is 1 of 4 Green Automatics made. There were only 22 Automatic Transmission ZL-1’s made out of the 69 total production.
This 1969 Fathom Green ZL-1 COPO Camaro came from the factory equipped as follows:
VIN# 124379N609965
Originating Dealer: Fred Gibb Chevrolet
Order Number: 222032
Dealer Transfer: Allen Green Chevrolet Seattle, WA
Factory Options:
Ext Color: Fathom Green
Interior Color: Black Standard
Transmission: Turbo 400 Automatic
Wheels: 14 X 7 steel XT wheels
Tires: F70 X 14 Raised White Lettered Tires
This 1969 Camaro was a limited production vehicle, equipped from factory with COPO 9560, a special performance package including an aluminum ZL-1 427-430 HP engine, special ducted hood, transistorized ignition, dual exhaust system, increased cooling capacity, and special front and rear suspension. It was specifically designed for drag racing.

COPO #27 ZL1 was originally built and sent to Fred Gibb Chevrolet. It was then redistibuted through GM and sent to Allen Green Chevy in Seattle WA



Dick Tortino bought and tubbed the car and raced the car and then sold it. The new owner wanted it un tubbed and when he took it to the body shop the improperly cut out the rear sub frame floor. He sued the shop and won the suit.



With the car cut up, he went to a salvage yard bought another 69 shell and disposed the original shell including the Cowl Tag. He kept most all of the components of the car including interior, steering wheel body parts ect and the "original VIN TAG and title he then constructed the new 69 ZL1 and fixed the original VIN TAG to the new shell correctly.



He sold the original ZL1 engine and drivetrain and replaced it with small block and different drive train.



He then raced it until 1981 and sold it to a Chevy dealer in WA. The car was then sold as a drag car and the owner sold the original ZL1 VIN TAG and title to another gentleman that attached it to its current body and completed the car with period correct ZL1 components ie... engine trans rear end interior and exterior. He fully restored the car in it's original color Fathom Green with black interior as it is today.



It has the "Original Factory VIN TAG" from the #27 COPO ZL1 that was produced in 1969 for Fred Gibb Chevrolet and is titled as such.

[ClawSS]

That's a lot of stuff to read.
"Is that a real COPO?"
"Yeah."
"Really?" "Wow!"
"Yeah. It's had a rough life. It isn't really the same body, subframe, engine, or trans, but it does have the same steering wheel that came with the VIN tag." "That's something, right?"

[Modern07]

Soooo..."the owner sold the original ZL1 VIN TAG and title to another gentleman that attached it to its current body and completed the car with period correct ZL1 components"

Am I reading that right?? Basically they have just attached the original vin number/tag to a completely different car that has been restored and now its worth $250k?!

Surely not?!

[ClawSS]

Owner thinks it's worth more than that, but you are right, the market (last bidder) thought $250k.

I am not well versed in the "fixing" of cars and the swapping of VINs or bill of sales vs. titles, etc...

But how in the world can you have a VIN (no matching cowl tag mind you) and a title and attach it to Camaro X and then with a straight face call it a COPO?

This Fathom Green ZL-1 Camaro was 1 of 50 Camaros ordered by the late Fred Gibb in November 1968. Due to the excessive cost of the ZL-1 option, this car was returned to Norwood, OH for redistribution by Joe Pike.

BS, "This VIN tag and some incidentals in or under this car CAME FROM 1 of 50 Camaros... blah blah blah..."

[ClawSS]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

I can only guess the original body was wrecked and they put the ZL1 427 motor in another 1969 Camaro.

You did read the words in the posting, right? They hacked up the car trying to fix the original tubbed rear...went to a junkyard and put a new body on it. #2 the orig owner SOLD the orig engine and tranny and put a small block in it.

[MLL67RSSS]

Originally Posted by Modern07

Soooo..."the owner sold the original ZL1 VIN TAG and title to another gentleman...

...and technically committed a felony. Gee, didn't a Mustang shop get raided and temporarily shut down for such practices? Yes, it did.

http://jalopnik.com/5582902/police-r...r-vin-swapping

[ClawSS]

Just cause this topic intrigues me...

How far can you go before you step into felony land?

New frame...I'd say yes.
New body panels, yep.
New cowl area...ya better re-rivet that cowl tag or put it somewhere on the car if you are smoothing the firewall.
Can you sell a VIN tag without a car under it? Absolutely NOT! At some point you need to get a new VIN and then it becomes a "kit" or something, right?

[MLL67RSSS]

It is a gray area left to the interpretation of the particular person enforcing it. Technically you can never remove a VIN plate, however there is some "what-they-don't-know-won't-hurt-them" fudge factor here. Say you're acid dipping the body, probably want to temporarily pull the plate. A re-body is up in the air, some say it is legal, some not. Things wear out and need to be replaced, the more replaced the less "original" the car is. Knew someone that restored a first gen 'vert. Ended up that virtually everything on the main body accept the cowl and tranny tunnel had to be replaced. Had the Dynacorn bodies been available at the time he'd have gone that route. With ALL that cutting and hacking do you really know what you end up with? Dynacorn would be as good or better than the originally built car and a "known" quality. Which would you rather have?
The spirit of the law it is OK to RESTORE an existing car using as much of the original parts as possible, it is NOT OK to collect a whole bunch of parts and a VIN plate to CREATE something that never was. That is where the Mustang place got in trouble.

[f5journal]

Originally Posted by ClawSS

Just cause this topic intrigues me...

How far can you go before you step into felony land?


Can you sell a VIN tag without a car under it? Absolutely NOT! At some point you need to get a new VIN and then it becomes a "kit" or something, right?

Well, I was watching this auction too.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Ca...#ht_111wt_1306

It was closed early when bids reached $500 or so..I'll save you some time and copy the stuff into the post

1969 Z28 x33. What you see is what you get. There isn't much left of the car, but someone with a lot of money and time may be able to do something with it. I was told the car wasn't in bad shape before it was ran into with a bulldozer but who knows. From what I can tell it was originally green with green interior, but at this point I don't think it really matters, heck you may even want to keep the original patina look it has going on. The car doesn't have a title, along with a lot of other things, but does still retain the VIN tag and trim tag. I'm willing to deliver up to 500 miles from Charleston SC for an additional fee. Feel free to call .......

[RxRated]

ZL-1 automatics?

[MLL67RSSS]

Yes, 23 of the 69 had THM400 3-spd automatic.

http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

[102SS]

So we are on to the 3rd body,Body 1 Hack Job,Body 2 Sold as Race car,Body 3 is the current car.

I guess it's worth what ever someone will pay.

But it should be sold as a COPO ZL1 Clone JMHO