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Old 07-07-2009, 12:34 PM   #57
LittleMT
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I wonder if the A6 G8 GXP (I know it has a LS3 as opposed to the L99) suffers from this alledged slowness issue?
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Old 07-07-2009, 01:05 PM   #58
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It doesn't count for the fact that GM advertised a performance level that some are not getting using the same stock settup. AND, I think it should be up to the dealer and GM to test all of this stuff for us. They DAMN sure won't reimburse us for whatever money we decide to spend elsewhere.
Errr...based on past experiences on this sort of issue, both in person and hearing from others, I wouldn't hold your breath on that. Especially if it's only a few cars having the issue. I would definately look into the gas issue first. What octane rating are you running in the car?

And besides, stuff not working efficiently is just a good excuse to mod and UPGRADE! I think a performance tune is in your future

Quote:
Welcome to the site. Please visit more often with advice. You are apparently knowlegable.

haha, thanks. I'm definately no expert though, I just picked up on info in figuring out what I've broken on my cars over the years.

I actually became intimately familiar issue with KR issues when I got my Grand Prix GTP, which are KR monsters. Fortunately, the GTO doesn't have nearly the same issues as the GP, though it can still be a factor.

Assuming everything working right, I'd expect a 400hp engine to be putting down about 340-345 rwhp on a dyno, so something is definately up with your car only making 305 (that's stock 5.7 LS1 territory). Rule out the easy stuff (gas) and move on from there.
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Old 07-07-2009, 01:14 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleMT View Post
I wonder if the A6 G8 GXP (I know it has a LS3 as opposed to the L99) suffers from this alledged slowness issue?
The LS3s have been fine in the Camaro. It's just the 99 that MAY have issues.

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What octane rating are you running in the car?

And besides, stuff not working efficiently is just a good excuse to mod and UPGRADE! I think a performance tune is in your future
Running premium. I don't have a favorite. I get it wherever I am when I need it.

My fear is that I do some mods and could have even gotten BETTER performance had I fixed the initial problem.
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Old 07-07-2009, 01:42 PM   #60
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Although my car doesnt seem to have performance issues (2SS A6), I'll admit its been a long time since I've driven a V8. So I might be wrong. I'd have to test it at a track to be sure. But right now I'm still in the break-in period and babying it.

However I will say that I've had some issues with the car making a knocking or pinging noise occasionally from the engine compartment. At first I was concerned that maybe it was something to do with the oil, but I checked it and it was full. So I think the issue has something to do with bad gas.

I've been filling up at Cheveron a lot and regardless where I go I've been getting premium. I can only find 91 where I live. It's also hot here (110).

In any event I'm going to use a different gas station chain to see if it resolves the issue. If not I'll mention it when I take the car in for the first oil change at 1500.
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Old 07-07-2009, 01:59 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Arioch View Post
Although my car doesnt seem to have performance issues (2SS A6), I'll admit its been a long time since I've driven a V8. So I might be wrong. I'd have to test it at a track to be sure. But right now I'm still in the break-in period and babying it.

However I will say that I've had some issues with the car making a knocking or pinging noise occasionally from the engine compartment. At first I was concerned that maybe it was something to do with the oil, but I checked it and it was full. So I think the issue has something to do with bad gas.

I've been filling up at Cheveron a lot and regardless where I go I've been getting premium. I can only find 91 where I live. It's also hot here (110).

In any event I'm going to use a different gas station chain to see if it resolves the issue. If not I'll mention it when I take the car in for the first oil change at 1500.
Might not want to 'baby' it so much. Change the oil early and get on it. Change again and get on it some more.
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:58 PM   #62
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Hey guys, I got referred to this thread from another car forum.

A few things pop into mind when looking at this:

1. What kind of gas are you using? I didn't see it brought up, but you ARE using premium fuel in this car, right? Anything less than premium *will* have a significant impact on performance.

If you are using premium, what BRAND of gas are you using? Have you tried switching to different brands in diagnosing the issue? I know that many LS2's have been finicky in what gas they're using, especially in fuels with the 10% ethanol blend in it. It's been known to cause some knock retard (KR), which can affect performance (more on that later). Have you tried switching brands? I know around me, Shell and QT have 10% ethanol blend gas, so I've shyed away from them.

2. Your wider, heaver wheels are affecting performance more than you think. I don't care what your friend in the 350Z "felt", but the laws of physics do not lie.

Here's an experiment you can try. Stand in the middle of a room, with your arms tucked into your body, and spin around as fast as you can.

- Now do the same thing with your arms outstretched.

- Now do it again with 5 lb dumbells in each hand.

What happened? It got harder to spin around each time, right? The EXACT same principle applies to your car's wheels. When you make the wheel wider and heavier, the engine has to work that much harder to get that wheel spinning. And I guarantee that the difference is probably a good bit more than you think.

Larger, heavier wheels will ALWAYS negatively affect performance. It is not possible to circumvent this principle. You can't have your "bling" and your "zing" as well.

3. Is there anyone in your area who can hook up a Predator or other car scanning tool up to your car and see what the engine is doing. Chances are, you are getting knock retard (KR) from something, which means less power.

For those not in the know, Knock Retard is where your car's onboard computer detects conditions that are favorable to knock (i.e. pre-detonation), and pulls timing from the engine in order to prevent knock from occurring.

Note: you cannot HEAR knock retard, so "I can't hear my engine pinging, so it must be fine" is not a valid argument. Only way to see if you have KR is to hook up an onboard scanner and do some WOT pulls.

Anyway, when the car's computer pulls timing in the form of KR, that loss of timing = a loss of power.

Several things can cause KR in a stock car, the biggest culprit being bad gas (from point 1). Also, hot weather can cause more KR than cold weather. What were the outside conditions when you performed these tests?

4. Has anyone yet hooked up an HP Tuners suite to these cars to see how restrictive the Torque Management is on these vehicles? Not much I can say on that unless someone's actually done the work to see if TM is holding the auto's back. If TM is an issue, a simple retune could fix that.

Anyway, hope this helps in figuring out what the issue may be.
Got to thinking about this and something popped into my mind. Of course the physics would make sense but what about the RWHP. Measured at the contact (rubber to road) the loss in HP from engine to road should be different then if heavier wheels are used.

For example.
Take a car a with 400 HP engine.

If it were to lose say 20% form engine to wheels and measure 320 HP on a dyno. Then same car, same engine may lose more HP to the wheels due to heavier wheels and maybe dyno out at say 25% loss and end up with only 300 HP?

Would you say this is correct?
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:09 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by irpq11 View Post
Got to thinking about this and something popped into my mind. Of course the physics would make sense but what about the RWHP. Measured at the contact (rubber to road) the loss in HP from engine to road should be different then if heavier wheels are used.

For example.
Take a car a with 400 HP engine.

If it were to lose say 20% form engine to wheels and measure 320 HP on a dyno. Then same car, same engine may lose more HP to the wheels due to heavier wheels and maybe dyno out at say 25% loss and end up with only 300 HP?

Would you say this is correct?
Very possible. If the engine is working harder to spin the wheels, which is what the dyno records, then it may be losing power that way.

What actual amount is lost is hard to say (I have no concrete insight on that issue). Although I doubt that bigger wheels alone are enough to make a car that "should" dyno at about 340 have 35hp less.

I'm not that knoweledgeable about Camaro options. Are the wheels you have a factory appearance option, or are they aftermarket on your own? 21" is a pretty big wheel regardless.

I think the easiest practical steps you can take to pinpoint the issue are:

- if you still have them, put your stock wheels back on and see if there is a difference

- find someone local with a tuner that can scan your car while driving (if all else fails, go to ls1tech.com and check the regional sections), then you can tell for sure if KR is holding you back.

If it's not the wheels or KR, next culprit would be either over-aggressive torque management in the auto trannys or the DOD doing funky things, although I'd assume that this issue would be more common if either of the above were the case. I do know that tuners of previous gen DOD engines just turned theirs off to never deactivate (I'm talking the recent Impala SS's, other LS4 models, etc)
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:35 PM   #64
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GM claims the 4.7 to 60 with the 20 inch wheels............
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:55 PM   #65
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ethanol would not make a problem since some race cars convert to alcohol rather than gasoline....also why they make a methanol/water injections systems to stop your car from running lean mostly for FI cars. also if it was a KR problem you would probably see more 6 speed cars having the problem....i think its a problem with the torque management or computer tuning
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Old 07-07-2009, 04:01 PM   #66
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if anyone has this problem and is in WNY, contact me, I'll hook up HPtuners to your car and scan it to see what is going on. There will be no charge cause I'm just scanning. So if I can help anyone let me know. Let's find out whats going on.
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Old 07-07-2009, 04:17 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by irpq11 View Post
The 21" wheels won't have ANY affect on performance as far as speed in a straight line. The outside diameter of the whole wheel is the same. Performance may be affected in other ways but straight line speed and power isn't one of them.

And yes the IS350 is really quick but she shouldn't beat me by 9 car lenths.
if you can prove the mass of the 21 and tire is equal to or less than the stock 20....you are correct. rotating mass, my friend. the fronts wont matter. this is why alum driveshafts are so popular now with manufacturers. the bigger the rim, the less tire footprint on the ground, which also means less traction--but corners like the devil owns it--to a point.
rotating mass robs torque.
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Old 07-07-2009, 04:19 PM   #68
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if anyone has this problem and is in WNY, contact me, I'll hook up HPtuners to your car and scan it to see what is going on. There will be no charge cause I'm just scanning. So if I can help anyone let me know. Let's find out whats going on.
Im in wny but no complaints with mine
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Old 07-07-2009, 04:59 PM   #69
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ethanol would not make a problem since some race cars convert to alcohol rather than gasoline....also why they make a methanol/water injections systems to stop your car from running lean mostly for FI cars. also if it was a KR problem you would probably see more 6 speed cars having the problem....i think its a problem with the torque management or computer tuning

Most likely because cars that are set up to run ethanol/alcohol are specifically tuned to do so.

Also, there have been numerous reports of "customer goes to get dyno tune on tank of 10% ethanol blend, has KR and disappointing results. customer switches gas brand to non-ethanol blend, and picks up 15 more HP and no KR with no other changes." I've heard too many of these stories to discount it.
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Old 07-07-2009, 05:39 PM   #70
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ok so i read it normal for cars with lower miles to feel slow? (i got my car a few days ago and only have 200 miles on it, a Auto 1SS). If so, how much actual power difference do you feel when you finish the break in? And even though im not supposed to , i have kind of been friving with a heavy foot. will this hurt performence in the future?. thanx
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