Detroit Speed Subframe Bushings

[Hilflos]

Saw the pics on FB Pete, quite like the look of them so far.

I went with DSE back when I did mine, and have zero regrets. The only increase I noticed was in how planted / solid the rear end felt afterward. There's no appreciable NVH increase that I've noticed.

To give some sort of subjective feedback on the upgrade, it was noticeable. It wasn't as extreme as going from stock '15 SS suspension to 1LE, but a significant portion there of, definitely. The ride didn't become more harsh, that I noticed, but the rear of the car definitely became even more communicative.

So far, 1LE suspension, solid sub-frame bushings, 3.91 gears in back, yeah, all fall under the , "should've come from the factory like this," heading.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Hilflos

Saw the pics on FB Pete, quite like the look of them so far.

I went with DSE back when I did mine, and have zero regrets. The only increase I noticed was in how planted / solid the rear end felt afterward. There's no appreciable NVH increase that I've noticed.

To give some sort of subjective feedback on the upgrade, it was noticeable. It wasn't as extreme as going from stock '15 SS suspension to 1LE, but a significant portion there of, definitely. The ride didn't become more harsh, that I noticed, but the rear of the car definitely became even more communicative.

So far, 1LE suspension, solid sub-frame bushings, 3.91 gears in back, yeah, all fall under the , "should've come from the factory like this," heading.

Good summary. Spot On.

[Hilflos]

In all fairness, based on my "should have come from the factory this way," what actually should have happened is I should have researched better and picked up a 1LE.

Oh well, getting to the destination the long way has been an education. Still a bit to go.

[TWOFORTYZ]

Originally Posted by el Wulf

it

Much appreciated! I honestly didn't think about it..but you're right, it does add a thin layer of protection....I remember anodizing aluminum parts when I was teenager with a battery charger, sulfuric acid, & Rye clothing dye. I just don't know if it is enough not to wear off with the operational stress that bushing are being subjected to. Whenever two dissimular bare metals touch, one of them will always corrode (whether they're cleaned regularly or not) through a chemical process known as "oxidation" & the inherent fact that metal always tries to convert back to its natural state. That's why engineers & manufacturers use hardware which has "anode" properties & the product itself has "cathode" properties, because it's less expensive to replace a rusted nut or bolt than the frame itself.

Galvanic or dissimilar metal corrosion is the form of corrosion you are trying to explain regarding dissimilar metals.

Oxidation is the process of oxygen molecules binding to the outer surface creating oxidation, on steel we call this rust.

I suggested anti seize because it often contains zinc, which will corrode before the base materials act as a sacrificial anode as you mentioned.

[el Wulf]

Just imagine if I would paid attention 30 years ago during high school chemistry~lol. Things have changed greatly from that '67 Camaro I had so many years ago & I appreciate the info about the zinc & the anti-seize....a old dawg can still learn a new trick~lol. I was checking out the solid subframe bushings from LG Motorsports...they look exactly like a set of BMR's polyurethane bushing but solid aluminum. Is there any difference between those & the hour-glass shaped design? Much appreciated!

[Synner]

Originally Posted by el Wulf

Just imagine if I would paid attention 30 years ago during high school chemistry~lol. Things have changed greatly from that '67 Camaro I had so many years ago & I appreciate the info about the zinc & the anti-seize....a old dawg can still learn a new trick~lol. I was checking out the solid subframe bushings from LG Motorsports...they look exactly like a set of BMR's polyurethane bushing but solid aluminum. Is there any difference between those & the hour-glass shaped design? Much appreciated!

Total weight and therefore cost from machine time in the CNC. Although LG looks a lot like delrin with aluminum sleeves. I wouldn't use aluminum sleeves if you're worried about corrosion. That's the part jammed/gouged into the body pin under torque. A very odd choice to me.

[el Wulf]

Synner...thanks for clarifying, didn't know the reason for the difference in design. Been researching & trying to sort out best way to stiffen up the chassis....inserts, polyurethane, derlin, aluminum, chassis brace.....can get a little overwhelming at times.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by el Wulf

Just imagine if I would paid attention 30 years ago during high school chemistry~lol. Things have changed greatly from that '67 Camaro I had so many years ago & I appreciate the info about the zinc & the anti-seize....a old dawg can still learn a new trick~lol. I was checking out the solid subframe bushings from LG Motorsports...they look exactly like a set of BMR's polyurethane bushing but solid aluminum. Is there any difference between those & the hour-glass shaped design? Much appreciated!

The upper rear strut mount is an hour glass shaped bushing. The sub-fram bushings are all cylindrical.

[TWOFORTYZ]

Originally Posted by el Wulf

Synner...thanks for clarifying, didn't know the reason for the difference in design. Been researching & trying to sort out best way to stiffen up the chassis....inserts, polyurethane, derlin, aluminum, chassis brace.....can get a little overwhelming at times.

Until recently I had to do all manners of side work to modify anything and studied all options intensely before making any decisions. Pull into a steep driveway and my car three wheels stock. The 5th gen Camaro tub is very stiff compared to the hatchback Nissan's and Datsuns I am used to, so I'm not bracing the chassis at any point. My 240SX coupe would also threewheel when stock, this is not a scientific measurement, but something easy to notice and compare. The coupe didn't gain much even after stitch welding the entire engine bay, the floppy hatch cars on the other hand were entirely different after bracing and welding tube to the pinch rails... I ran the same parts on both my second 240SX hatch and the 240SX coupe after my hatch was hit by a Bronco. Sorry for the semi off topic rant, but this is my reasoning for why not to stiffen the unibody.

Objectively speaking, with a chassis this good, it's more cost effective to start elsewhere. I want to do tension/radius rod bushings to start, then subframe inserts. As far as the rear options, I am considering subframe inserts primarily due to the simplicity of the install. I feel they would offer a significant improvement in stiffness, and are a good cost effective option. Cost including my time for install because I don't like people touching my cars.

Have you gotten the car aligned yet? What are you trying to resolve or improve? Personally, I started with a square wheel setup and I am happy for now, I already have a 1LE/ZL1 rear swaybar to bolt in when I get time. I am all about maximum results for the least effort.

[el Wulf]

Originally Posted by TWOFORTYZ

Until recently I had to do all manners of side work to modify anything and studied all options intensely before making any decisions. Pull into a steep driveway and my car three wheels stock. The 5th gen Camaro tub is very stiff compared to the hatchback Nissan's and Datsuns I am used to, so I'm not bracing the chassis at any point. My 240SX coupe would also threewheel when stock, this is not a scientific measurement, but something easy to notice and compare. The coupe didn't gain much even after stitch welding the entire engine bay, the floppy hatch cars on the other hand were entirely different after bracing and welding tube to the pinch rails... I ran the same parts on both my second 240SX hatch and the 240SX coupe after my hatch was hit by a Bronco. Sorry for the semi off topic rant, but this is my reasoning for why not to stiffen the unibody.

Objectively speaking, with a chassis this good, it's more cost effective to start elsewhere. I want to do tension/radius rod bushings to start, then subframe inserts. As far as the rear options, I am considering subframe inserts primarily due to the simplicity of the install. I feel they would offer a significant improvement in stiffness, and are a good cost effective option. Cost including my time for install because I don't like people touching my cars.

Have you gotten the car aligned yet? What are you trying to resolve or improve? Personally, I started with a square wheel setup and I am happy for now, I already have a 1LE/ZL1 rear swaybar to bolt in when I get time. I am all about maximum results for the least effort.

Same here. My gearhead creedo is practical, efficient, & functional (+ fast). It's not my DD, so I can take a more aggressive route but live in California...was told that any cam larger than a VVT Stage 1 cam will be too lumpy & not pass smog (still need to verify). Building it to be a "weekend warrior" that is both streetable but also can be taken to the track. Want to setup the suspension to be able to road race, autocross, & road rally....maybe an occasional street light~lol. Working on which mods to install right now & what parts to would be more cost effective to completely upgrade now or replace later. I agree with you about the subframe bushing inserts. Prothane has a set inserts (85 durometer)ifor around $30 & have a durometer rating of 85 (BMR's inserts costs $180 & have a durometer rating of 70). Eventually I'll upgrade to solid but for now, I'm using the extra cash to purchase the 2013 rear upper shock mounts, BMR derlin/poly differential bushings, Prothane front suspension bushing kit, rear upper control arm bushing kit, JPD MS outer trailing arm bushings, SPL end links, & Granatelli MS rear lca's.....this way, I can fully upgrade the suspension & install the 3.70 gears (at the same time) while the cradle & differential are out. Next, I want to concentrate on upgrading engine & tranny performance & afterwards, I will fine tune the suspension.

[JusticePete]

OEM Z/28 upper outer bushings are better than any urethane product available.
The front lower inner control arm bushings are better than anything other than a spherical.
A split brake tension / radiuss arm urethane bushing is not as good as the steel jacketed OEM rubber bushings.

[el Wulf]

Z-28 5[QUOTE=JusticePete;10101114]

OEM Z/28 upper outer bushings are better than any urethane product available.
The front lower inner control arm bushings are better than anything other than a spherical.
A split brake tension / radiuss arm urethane bushing is not as good as the steel jacketed OEM rubber bushings.

Not completely harded-headed....just learning~lol! The original plan was to eventually upgrade to the Z-28 components (radius arm, rear knuckle, rear uca bushing) along with the solid sf bushings & thought that changing out the radius arm & uca bushing (with polyurethane) along with the other bushing would be a good idea. But see your point...both in performance & cost-wise. Will take your advise & install the Z-28 front lca's arms & rear uca bushing now, then after the powertrain modifications, want to finalize the suspension upgrade with the Z-28 rear knuckles, Blistien B6 struts/shocks (after the 1LE's), & a set of both JPSS sway bars and solid sf bushings.
Are these the correct Z-28 part numbers (anyone):
Upper rear control arm bushings
23104906(R)
23104907(L)
Front radius arm
23105018(R)
23105019(L)

It's a no-go on the Granatelli MS lca's; I didn't know the company was referring to their trailing arms(lol)....already aquired a set of Spohn Performance trailing arms & toe links (adjustable & w/Del-Sphere rod ends from another forum member). Are the bushings on the Z-28 rear lca's (23484878) the same as on the Z-28 front inner control arm (better than anything other than spherical) & would you recommend "boxing" the arm with additional plate to further reinforce the arm.

[JusticePete]

[QUOTE=el Wulf;10102976]Z-28 5

Originally Posted by JusticePete

OEM Z/28 upper outer bushings are better than any urethane product available.
The front lower inner control arm bushings are better than anything other than a spherical.
A split brake tension / radiuss arm urethane bushing is not as good as the steel jacketed OEM rubber bushings.

Not completely harded-headed....just learning~lol! The original plan was to eventually upgrade to the Z-28 components (radius arm, rear knuckle, rear uca bushing) along with the solid sf bushings & thought that changing out the radius arm & uca bushing (with polyurethane) along with the other bushing would be a good idea. But see your point...both in performance & cost-wise. Will take your advise & install the Z-28 front lca's arms & rear uca bushing now, then after the powertrain modifications, want to finalize the suspension upgrade with the Z-28 rear knuckles, Blistien B6 struts/shocks (after the 1LE's), & a set of both JPSS sway bars and solid sf bushings.
Are these the correct Z-28 part numbers (anyone):
Upper rear control arm bushings
23104906(R)
23104907(L)
Front radius arm
23105018(R)
23105019(L)

It's a no-go on the Granatelli MS lca's; I didn't know the company was referring to their trailing arms(lol)....already aquired a set of Spohn Performance trailing arms & toe links (adjustable & w/Del-Sphere rod ends from another forum member). Are the bushings on the Z-28 rear lca's (23484878) the same as on the Z-28 front inner control arm (better than anything other than spherical) & would you recommend "boxing" the arm with additional plate to further reinforce the arm.

Those part numbers look right. I finally had time to find and post pictures for you.



Urethane gets softer as it is heated. The heat from engine oil in the pan and the exhaust makes the inner front control arm bushing location a hot spot. There is no way a split urethane bushing offer more control than the OEM bushing pictured above.

The radius / tension control arm use a steel jacketed rubber bushing from the factory. The rubber is bonded to the steel jacket and the ferule. There is nothing wrong with the factory bushing. The rubber snubber used in the factory bushing is soft. GM corrects that with the Z/28 nylon insert. JPSS has been using billet aluminum and delrin for years. The only way to get more control is to use a spherical. Sphericals are great on track cars, but most will not appreciate the noise in a daily driver / street driven Camaro.

[olblue75]

I have the JPSS Delrin inserts and it was a immediate noticeable difference and a lot cheaper than a set of Z28 Radius Arms!!!