Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Cold Air Inductions
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-12-2010, 06:21 PM   #15
bbardo
 
bbardo's Avatar
 
Drives: "Modi" son of "Thor"
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Waterloo, Ny
Posts: 65
I have no more info to give. That is why I am looking for more info myself. The GM computers can't detect the difference in the cam, just the tune. So, if your dealer doesn't tell, Gm won't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOETIE View Post
Where is this coming from ? I smell camshaft ,and I want it ! .....more info please, I am pumped over this ....
If we give them twenty five hunnerd dollars for a cam at dealer level ,maybe the GM rep wouldnt spank us for puttin on long tube headers...
__________________
2SS/rs named "Modi"
Adopted & signed by Scott 8/15/09
Officially "Son #2 of Thor"
bbardo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2010, 06:24 PM   #16
bbardo
 
bbardo's Avatar
 
Drives: "Modi" son of "Thor"
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Waterloo, Ny
Posts: 65
Btw, long tubes will need a tune, as they will give a CEL.
Plus I am in NY, so shorties is best I can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOETIE View Post
Where is this coming from ? I smell camshaft ,and I want it ! .....more info please, I am pumped over this ....
If we give them twenty five hunnerd dollars for a cam at dealer level ,maybe the GM rep wouldnt spank us for puttin on long tube headers...
__________________
2SS/rs named "Modi"
Adopted & signed by Scott 8/15/09
Officially "Son #2 of Thor"
bbardo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2010, 06:29 PM   #17
Bell040


 
Bell040's Avatar
 
Drives: 2SS/RS - Black - GFX
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: B'ham, Alabama
Posts: 2,458
if a GM dealer reprograms the PCM (they call it calibrating) it should be fine... I think it's only when a non-gm shop reprograms the PCM that it voids the waranty. I read something about this a while back... it reads: "non-dealer" calibrations..... I will look it up.
__________________
Ordered: 10-13-08
Built: 3-30-09 (#1691)
Recieved: 6-12-09

Blacked out, Cammed (Lunati Voodoo 233/245, .578/.598 @114°, +4°), ARH LTs, VR OTR CAI, Cutouts, and lots of other fun mods.
Bell040 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2010, 06:50 PM   #18
BOETIE

 
BOETIE's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS 6 Speed Man
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 1,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbardo View Post
Yep, same thing. If your dealer is willing to do that, the warranty would fall on their shoulders, as GM will automatically void you (as far as I understand) once it connects to their system. You just cant hide a tune from GM. Perhaps that is part of the increased labor price they are charging ? As far as I have researched so far, the new system that these cars are the first to use connects directly to GM for diagnostics and updates. The dealer has no control to hide a tune. Even a spare pcm wont work, they are tied to the vin and compare odometer readings to the other onboard systems.

The long and short is - reflash the pcm - lose the GM powertrain warranty period. What a given dealer wishes to warranty is their choice - and thier word. Be careful !!
Everything above is based on reaserching mainly on this forum, and talking to my dealer. The truth is that nobody seems to be sure about this, and I choose to err on the side of caution. Lots of people are tuning their cars though, so we'll have to see what happens when some of them get into warranty issues
It seems that it would require a tune or it wouldnt run right....this needs sum investigation and it has to have the GM blessing...not the dealer....the dealer cant over ride Gm policy I dont think.....
__________________
She's a Zaino Girl !
BOETIE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2010, 07:09 PM   #19
bbardo
 
bbardo's Avatar
 
Drives: "Modi" son of "Thor"
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Waterloo, Ny
Posts: 65
Didn't mean that dealer could override, but could choose to provide a warranty of their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOETIE View Post
It seems that it would require a tune or it wouldnt run right....this needs sum investigation and it has to have the GM blessing...not the dealer....the dealer cant over ride Gm policy I dont think.....
__________________
2SS/rs named "Modi"
Adopted & signed by Scott 8/15/09
Officially "Son #2 of Thor"
bbardo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2010, 07:16 PM   #20
bbardo
 
bbardo's Avatar
 
Drives: "Modi" son of "Thor"
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Waterloo, Ny
Posts: 65
Thus the reason for this thread

[QUOTE=BOETIE;1477273]It seems that it would require a tune or it wouldnt run right....
__________________
2SS/rs named "Modi"
Adopted & signed by Scott 8/15/09
Officially "Son #2 of Thor"
bbardo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2010, 07:31 PM   #21
Russell James


 
Russell James's Avatar
 
Drives: two 5ths and a 1st
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Mich
Posts: 4,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bell040 View Post
There is still a need for this thread...

I have read those other threads, and I want to pull the trigger on this mod. I found a dealer that will install it without voiding the warranty.
(but it's $2500 to do so...).

However.... I am going to try to talk him down a little.

With all the threads out there about hot cams, I have yet to hear a video of a 2010 Camaro LS3 with a GM Hotcam..... or...... see an actual rear wheel dyno curve. Robin Lawrence (from GM I think) seems to be the most knowledgable, as he has installed one in a stand alone LS3 and provided an engine dyno comparison of a bunch of cams.... http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...son/index.html... no videos though.

... I need to teach these guys how to make legible data charts in excel

So this thread should be for........... Finding the 2010 Camaro Hotcam Video..... if one exists.

If we wait a few weeks and still no video or dyno charts... I may have to be the first one to pull the trigger. I want more low end HP, low end torque, noticable lope (even with stock exhaust), and my factory warranty. Drivability is not a big issue to me... as long as I dont stall at the redlights.

I am torn b/w 2 mod plans that will cost about $2500 each...

1) LT's, HF cats, cutouts (or catback) and tune

2) GM hotcam (w/ factory tune) + muffler and resonator delete
I'd go option #1 plus add a CAI and skip the cutouts.
Cutouts are for just revving it up for kicks. Zero performance benefits. Put a decent exhaust on it and it will sound good all the time.

I don't see putting a performance cam in a motor still restricted by log style manifolds and 4 cats and the factory intake as accomplishing much.

I'd start with headers, exhaust, CAI and tuning. Then research an ideal LS3 stage 1 type cam for exactly how you want it to perform. I sure wouldn't use an old LS1 hot cam with less lift than the OE LS3 cam when there are better choices out there developed specifically for the LS3/L92 heads.

If the hot cam route is based on 1 person at 1 dealer saying it will still be under warranty. That person is flat wrong. And when he is gone or that dealer is gone, your screwed.

That's why if that 100K powertrain warranty is a concern, I'd go the exhaust and intake route at first. Piece of cake to reverse someday if you need to. Then if you comfortable saying goodbye to the warranty, pick a performance cam out that is spec'd out for exactly the way you want it to perform, and you've already got the increased flowing intake and exhaust to go along with it.
Russell James is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2010, 08:51 PM   #22
Bell040


 
Bell040's Avatar
 
Drives: 2SS/RS - Black - GFX
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: B'ham, Alabama
Posts: 2,458
Your input is greatly appriciated!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell James View Post
I'd go option #1 plus add a CAI and skip the cutouts.
Cutouts are for just revving it up for kicks. Zero performance benefits. Put a decent exhaust on it and it will sound good all the time.
I have the Vararam on order... should be geting it soon (im # 97 i think)

There is a noweeds video showing the car on the dyno... they made a stock pull and then another pull with the valves open and they gained like 15 hp... I will try to find it. Other than HP, this would also give me control of the volume... which you won't have without cutouts.

EDIT: found it... dyno starts at 2:00 and hp results at 4:30


Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell James View Post
I don't see putting a performance cam in a motor still restricted by log style manifolds and 4 cats and the factory intake as accomplishing much.
I plan to do LTs when I get some more cash... but it will be a long while before I can get another $2500 for a cam. I have read that the LS3 heads flow quite well compared to most other intakes. I will be porting them anyways in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell James View Post
I'd start with headers, exhaust, CAI and tuning.
tuning will void the warranty, headers will thow a code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell James View Post
Then research an ideal LS3 stage 1 type cam for exactly how you want it to perform. I sure wouldn't use an old LS1 hot cam with less lift than the OE LS3 cam when there are better choices out there developed specifically for the LS3/L92 heads.
I have heard this alot... about this being a +10yr old cam. It seems like a good thing to me though. And if its fine by Robin's standards... It can't be that bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell James View Post
If the hot cam route is based on 1 person at 1 dealer saying it will still be under warranty. That person is flat wrong. And when he is gone or that dealer is gone, your screwed.
He said he would put it in writing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell James View Post
That's why if that 100K powertrain warranty is a concern, I'd go the exhaust and intake route at first. Piece of cake to reverse someday if you need to. Then if you comfortable saying goodbye to the warranty, pick a performance cam out that is spec'd out for exactly the way you want it to perform, and you've already got the increased flowing intake and exhaust to go along with it.
Agreed... I just dont want to throw the cat efficiency code that requires the tune. It would be cool if there were dummy O2 sensors.

Also, in the same conversation with the service manager, he said that only major tweaking of the PCM would cause a red flag... like removing the rev limiter. But turning the cat effienciency warning off would not be a big deal. That's why option #1 is still on the table.

I think I will think about it for a week or 2 before I put 2G's in someone elses hands... so keep the conversation going.
__________________
Ordered: 10-13-08
Built: 3-30-09 (#1691)
Recieved: 6-12-09

Blacked out, Cammed (Lunati Voodoo 233/245, .578/.598 @114°, +4°), ARH LTs, VR OTR CAI, Cutouts, and lots of other fun mods.

Last edited by Bell040; 02-12-2010 at 09:05 PM.
Bell040 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2010, 09:18 PM   #23
BOETIE

 
BOETIE's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS 6 Speed Man
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 1,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bell040 View Post
Your input is greatly appriciated!!!



I have the Vararam on order... should be geting it soon (im # 97 i think)

There is a noweeds video showing the car on the dyno... they made a stock pull and then another pull with the valves open and they gained like 15 hp... I will try to find it. Other than HP, this would also give me control of the volume... which you won't have without cutouts.

EDIT: found it... dyno starts at 2:00 and hp results at 4:30




I plan to do LTs when I get some more cash... but it will be a long while before I can get another $2500 for a cam. I have read that the LS3 heads flow quite well compared to most other intakes. I will be porting them anyways in the future.



tuning will void the warranty, headers will thow a code



I have heard this alot... about this being a +10yr old cam. It seems like a good thing to me though. And if its fine by Robin's standards... It can't be that bad.



He said he would put it in writing



Agreed... I just dont want to throw the cat efficiency code that requires the tune. It would be cool if there were dummy O2 sensors.

Also, in the same conversation with the service manager, he said that only major tweaking of the PCM would cause a red flag... like removing the rev limiter. But turning the cat effienciency warning off would not be a big deal. That's why option #1 is still on the table.

I think I will think about it for a week or 2 before I put 2G's in someone elses hands... so keep the conversation going.

I just had a thought slap me....if this were to go down , its inevitable about retuning and perhaps tuning around a mapp or oxygen sensor ,then it may not have breath that can get by emissions,especially with additional work like free flowing cats....all of this has to be pre determined ....all of this needs to come down from GM itself .
__________________
She's a Zaino Girl !
BOETIE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2010, 10:29 PM   #24
UsedTaHaveA68
 
UsedTaHaveA68's Avatar
 
Drives: Hyundai Sonata
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Little Rock, AR
Posts: 497
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ons/index.html

This is the 2nd or 3rd installment of Uncle Robin's 2010 Camaro mule. They put the GM HOT cam in it with the GMPP CNC heads. 409 RWHP with GMPP shorties (which were only worth like 4 hp over stock manifolds) and cats, 423RWHP with GMPP shorties sans cats. Installed a Lunati Voodoo cam and made 448 RWHP. Then they installed Kooks LT headers/high flow cats and made 467 RWHP.

Wish they had made a video of it with both cams so we could hear them.
UsedTaHaveA68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 07:45 AM   #25
bbardo
 
bbardo's Avatar
 
Drives: "Modi" son of "Thor"
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Waterloo, Ny
Posts: 65
Sorry guys, I didn't mean to fuel the "great hot cam debate". I was just looking for anyone that has tried it without a tune. I am trying to stay within the parameters that my own personal dealer will work with me, but still put a bit more punch in the seat of the pants. So for me anyway, it will be Hot Cam w/o a tune or no cam. I realize there are better choices out there, but they (my dealer) won't work with me if I don't use a GM cam. Yes, it is dependant on the particular service manager's word, but if need arises - I can always put the stock cam back in for warranty purposes. From what I understand, a PCM flash can be detected permanently. Even if flashed back to original. I just don't want to be the one to find out the hard way.
__________________
2SS/rs named "Modi"
Adopted & signed by Scott 8/15/09
Officially "Son #2 of Thor"
bbardo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 11:36 AM   #26
Bell040


 
Bell040's Avatar
 
Drives: 2SS/RS - Black - GFX
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: B'ham, Alabama
Posts: 2,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbardo View Post
Sorry guys, I didn't mean to fuel the "great hot cam debate". I was just looking for anyone that has tried it without a tune. I am trying to stay within the parameters that my own personal dealer will work with me, but still put a bit more punch in the seat of the pants. So for me anyway, it will be Hot Cam w/o a tune or no cam. I realize there are better choices out there, but they (my dealer) won't work with me if I don't use a GM cam. Yes, it is dependant on the particular service manager's word, but if need arises - I can always put the stock cam back in for warranty purposes. From what I understand, a PCM flash can be detected permanently. Even if flashed back to original. I just don't want to be the one to find out the hard way.
If GM reflashes your PCM it will not void the warranty. If anyone else flashes it - it can be voided if it is proved to be the cause of the warranty work.

Find a dealer that will recalibrate the PCM themselves after the install. Mine will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsedTaHaveA68 View Post
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ons/index.html

This is the 2nd or 3rd installment of Uncle Robin's 2010 Camaro mule. They put the GM HOT cam in it with the GMPP CNC heads. 409 RWHP with GMPP shorties (which were only worth like 4 hp over stock manifolds) and cats, 423RWHP with GMPP shorties sans cats. Installed a Lunati Voodoo cam and made 448 RWHP. Then they installed Kooks LT headers/high flow cats and made 467 RWHP.

Wish they had made a video of it with both cams so we could hear them.
Great Find!!!

now maybe we can get Robin to chime in and tell us a little more about the hotcam idle and the PCM recalibration. Also, 406 HP is not impressive for ported heads and a camshaft swap. I wonder if a dyno pull was done before the cam and head swap. 350 HP? 370? 390? They mention that a CAI and MAF were used too.

I was hoping for 430 with the Hotcam and a CAI (375 base + 45 cam+ 10 cai). I know the exhaust is restricting it, but I was going to deal with that later.
__________________
Ordered: 10-13-08
Built: 3-30-09 (#1691)
Recieved: 6-12-09

Blacked out, Cammed (Lunati Voodoo 233/245, .578/.598 @114°, +4°), ARH LTs, VR OTR CAI, Cutouts, and lots of other fun mods.

Last edited by Bell040; 02-13-2010 at 12:03 PM.
Bell040 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 12:45 PM   #27
Russell James


 
Russell James's Avatar
 
Drives: two 5ths and a 1st
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Mich
Posts: 4,310
How is your dealer going to recal your car?

Dealer equipment can only reflash an OE cal and that is it. A performance cam requires dyno tuning. Have you seen a dyno and aftermarket tuning equipment at that dealership?

A hot cam with no headers and a dealer refash makes no sense. 3 things that will not work.

If your so set on the Hot Cam why not give the Hot Cam gurus a call - Katech. Nobody Knows more about that cam then them, and they have also come out with several newer LS3 cams since. They could probably tell you if what your thinking of doing makes sense. (it doesn't)
Russell James is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 01:00 PM   #28
UsedTaHaveA68
 
UsedTaHaveA68's Avatar
 
Drives: Hyundai Sonata
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Little Rock, AR
Posts: 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bell040 View Post
If GM reflashes your PCM it will not void the warranty. If anyone else flashes it - it can be voided if it is proved to be the cause of the warranty work.

Find a dealer that will recalibrate the PCM themselves after the install. Mine will.



Great Find!!!

now maybe we can get Robin to chime in and tell us a little more about the hotcam idle and the PCM recalibration. Also, 406 HP is not impressive for ported heads and a camshaft swap. I wonder if a dyno pull was done before the cam and head swap. 350 HP? 370? 390? They mention that a CAI and MAF were used too.

I was hoping for 430 with the Hotcam and a CAI (375 base + 45 cam+ 10 cai). I know the exhaust is restricting it, but I was going to deal with that later.
Stock it made 374.

GMPP shorty headers, Abaco CAI and MAF, cat-back exhaust made 397hp.

GMPP CNC heads and HOT cam - 406 hp

Removed cats - 429 hp

Lunati cam - 448

Kooks LT headers and cats - 467.

I'd say it's reasonable to assume that LT headers and cats added to the HOT cam would produce a similar 19hp gain over shorty headers and no cats, so 429 + 19 = 448 RWHP.

I couldn't find it, but I remember a thread a long time ago of Robin Lawrence stating that the GMPP heads really didn't offer much of an advantage over stock heads because the stock ones are so good already. Maybe on FI motors you'll see some gains, but not much on N/A. Anyway, the HOT cam with a CAI and LT headers should be a legitimate 450RWHP car, which isn't too shabby I think. Especially if your dealer lets you keep your warranty.
UsedTaHaveA68 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cam basics CamaroSpike23 Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 76 11-25-2015 11:42 AM
Hot air Intakes -By Kenne bell ADM PERFORMANCE Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 66 02-08-2011 08:33 PM
Cam Vs. Cam Vs. Cam My First Camaro! Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 12 12-11-2010 01:54 AM
List of Intakes that will work with the TVS-2300 MagnaCharger JJ2010 Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 26 03-19-2010 02:11 AM
Great Read and Info on Oil Weight Banshee Mechanical Maintenance: Break-in / Oil & Fluids / Servicing 1 11-23-2009 09:03 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.