rear end gear change and nitrous: smell of desperation : gt 500

[christianchevell]

I was looking at some u tube yesterday and saw a couple gt-500's in the nines....Knowing that I want a livernois build to get there just for kicks I went to the tuner sites for the gt-500 to see what they did to get into the nines.

SO I read they both went with 123 mm throttle bodies to pump more air fuel mixture, And they both went to three inch exhaust with x pipe and they both went with headers. And they both went with pulley changes to add even more boost. No mention of idler change etc......

Also I read they both changed the rear end to 4.10 gears and gave them a nitrous shot. Both of therse moves remind me of Biff Tanner in the "back to the future" movie when he drives that big 4wd truck up to michael j. fox at the stop light and revs his engine to race.

If this is what the ford tuners do I would gladly do a " back to the future" turn to another road to get away from them.

Being a old hot rodder there are things I know I will not go to the trouble of doing because they suck. Like take a engine allready running a lot of boost and shove nitrous in to it. I like to be street- strip, not captain insano.

And the second thing I definitely would not do is shove 4.10 gears in instead of 3.31 gears stock so I could go faster on the track but run at 6000 rpm driving 65 on the freeway. I like to daily drive my car.

Thats why I can really say a nice super chiller and a livernois build make so much more practical my choice to get to nines, and much more streetable the zl1 with all its cushy options the gt-500 does not have, and I can take all the extra money the ford guys will spend going to the nines and buy a economy car too if I really want one.....lol like I need another car. A livernois build will suit me just fine thank you very much

And then I can do nines for less with out being desperate like some Biff Tanner ford fanatic whose company just happened to match chevies 6.2 liter engine with a 1.9 liter supercharger by doing thier own math......5.4 liter..over bore new sleeves= 5.8 liter + 2.3 liter supercharger.

Coincidence...or the smell of desperation? Smells like burnt engine to me.

[POWERFREAK]

Ummmm, who cares? I dont like mustangs either, but does it really matter how you get to the 9's?

I guess you have no actual experience w/ 4.10's in a new car. Maybe in your old school hot rod w/ a th350 and 14" wheels, gears wouldnt be highway friendly. I cant specifically speak for the mustangs (i really dont care to), but in my camaro w/ 4.10's i'm at 2000 rpm @ 70mph. The bigger issue is at the track...possibly having to hit an extra gear and gettin it to hook up.

[grocerygetter]

Don't forget...the gearing in the tranny in the gt500 and the zl1 are different.

[christianchevell]

well its matters if you blow the engine up youngster, say by frying a ring or two, and it is sad you think it would have not much effect to go to such a drastic gear change with out touching the trannie to change it to more streetable. If I can make a IRS car with a automatic do nines without changing the entire exhaust, going too twenty pounds of boost, changing the rearend gears, and throwing nitrous in the mix..........I will do it and any one who knows hot rodding should salute the car that can do that over the other.........DAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

because of the huge disadvantage the IRS smaller blower-less boost automatic trans heavier car has to start with....you add up those and its one hell of a difference in money and reliablity and daily driver- street strip status versus.......

well why answer you that it makes such a difference in how you get to the nines......You sound like the ford tuners thought pattern. why not just give your car a solid rear axle?

[POWERFREAK]

Did you just call me "youngster"?


Ok pops.

Really, if someone only cares about going fast, who cares how the do it, it's their car and their $$$. It's not like their the only ones at the track running nitrous.

[Bolt-onC6]

Originally Posted by christianchevell

And the second thing I definitely would not do is shove 4.10 gears in instead of 3.31 gears stock so I could go faster on the track but run at 6000 rpm driving 65 on the freeway. I like to daily drive my car.

With 4.10 gearing at 70 mph the GT500 engine would be turning less than 1800 rpm.

Originally Posted by grocerygetter

Don't forget...the gearing in the tranny in the gt500 and the zl1 are different.

With the exception of 2nd gear being 1.82 in the GT500, 1.78 in the GM I believe they both have same tranny gearing.

[daytripper]

Originally Posted by christianchevell

I was looking at some u tube yesterday and saw a couple gt-500's in the nines....Knowing that I want a livernois build to get there just for kicks I went to the tuner sites for the gt-500 to see what they did to get into the nines.

SO I read they both went with 123 mm throttle bodies to pump more air fuel mixture, And they both went to three inch exhaust with x pipe and they both went with headers. And they both went with pulley changes to add even more boost. No mention of idler change etc......

Also I read they both changed the rear end to 4.10 gears and gave them a nitrous shot. Both of therse moves remind me of Biff Tanner in the "back to the future" movie when he drives that big 4wd truck up to michael j. fox at the stop light and revs his engine to race.

If this is what the ford tuners do I would gladly do a " back to the future" turn to another road to get away from them.

Being a old hot rodder there are things I know I will not go to the trouble of doing because they suck. Like take a engine allready running a lot of boost and shove nitrous in to it. I like to be street- strip, not captain insano.

And the second thing I definitely would not do is shove 4.10 gears in instead of 3.31 gears stock so I could go faster on the track but run at 6000 rpm driving 65 on the freeway. I like to daily drive my car.

Thats why I can really say a nice super chiller and a livernois build make so much more practical my choice to get to nines, and much more streetable the zl1 with all its cushy options the gt-500 does not have, and I can take all the extra money the ford guys will spend going to the nines and buy a economy car too if I really want one.....lol like I need another car. A livernois build will suit me just fine thank you very much

And then I can do nines for less with out being desperate like some Biff Tanner ford fanatic whose company just happened to match chevies 6.2 liter engine with a 1.9 liter supercharger by doing thier own math......5.4 liter..over bore new sleeves= 5.8 liter + 2.3 liter supercharger.

Coincidence...or the smell of desperation? Smells like burnt engine to me.

Where did you come up with the 6000rpm stuff ? Your car has 2 overdrive gears . You could comfortably run 4.56 gears . When cars had only 4-speeds many daily drivers had 4.11 and 4.56 gears . No problem . They did shift better and faster than these 6-speeds though.

[9secs]

Not sure the point of this thread since the same thing is being done to the fast zl1s right now. All of that stuff you listed are easy mods and dont even require digging into the motor, and can be done in a day or 2 at any shop... so if thats all it takes for a owner who wants to go 9s to do so, thats still a bargain and a fully streetable car.

[MarcInUtah]

Originally Posted by 9secs

Not sure the point of this thread since the same thing is being done to the fast zl1s right now. All of that stuff you listed are easy mods and dont even require digging into the motor, and can be done in a day or 2 at any shop... so if thats all it takes for a owner who wants to go 9s to do so, thats still a bargain and a fully streetable car.

Agree...

[christianchevell]

the point is they are not modding thier heads or changing the cam, as in old school rodding. They are replacing the entire exhaust system, the rear end gears both not so easy mods. Then they are boosting the thing to the max and some nitrous......not exactly the most streetable mods.

So in other words thier heads flow well .....why mess with that...they are not under cammed like chevy not wanting to out do the corvette....And they do not change the cam because of the complexity of the engine. So we have to assume it is pretty high lift from the factory.
They want to totally nut it out....the next thing comes is major money or boom.....And they have the trans geared to rev closer to the power band lower so they only go to second gear in a quarter......

I imagine thier engines are not exactly spinning slowly to get fast in the quarter and they have Nodules protruding from the wheels' bead surfaces embed in the tires Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar to help prevent the tire from slipping on the rim under hard acceleration and braking sound a like problem waiting to happen...

Who has nodules digging into thier tires on thier wheels? For a street car sounds like too many bumps and your eating at you sidewalls by the bead. And I never plan on changing my rear end gears unless they are shot because I want a more street strip car that does not have to wind up that high to get the job done, and you miss the point about dependability. Sure I would put a better pulley system even port heads and put in a bigger cam and headers. There does some a point when boost is too much and a problem waiting to happen. Old school blowers had to be rebuilt a lot more than how they have made them now. So say you want to make a engine with 9.5 compression and then you get forged pistons and the best rings etc etc....

Push the compression ratio too high with 20 lbs of boost and then shove some nitrous in it and its very hard on the internals. Thats what people do not take that much into account when first building a car just to go fast. My needs are more than going fast, I want comfortable road trips, curve hugging acceleration, and the occassional race with out worrying my way over blown car should just sit in the garage because it never gets any decent milege at all.

And by the way the stuff they are doing is not really that much of a bargain.....
Like changing from a good rear end gear to another. And changing the entire exhaust not just going to headers. Of course on the chevy side you have to change cam and port heads to really blast but it of course is so worth the upgrade due to g.m. making the motor a push rod motor ....more old school....more dependable..more desirable for things like a cam change.

It is all in how you look at it. I know livernois does mustangs, so does hennesy, etc etc But the bargain I am seeing is the ten grand for livernois over other shops to install the heads after they are done porting them and a new cam and the etc etc etc with out having to change the entire exhaust and change rear ends or put nitrous in the mix and they made the nines.

Thus livernois is as many places will making the zl1 6.2 more like it should have been by g.m. Frankly I think g.m. should have gone with the 2.3 liter supercharger too but they did not want to step on the vettes territory. And of course mustang does not have that problem.

[el ess A]

I'm an oldster too, but I CERTAINLY don't believe that old-school mentality necessarily crosses over to the new-school ways of boosting, etc.

I guess I've got different priorities in life now. I used to be the guy swapping engines over the weekend and camming, porting heads, etc. Now, I want more reliability and the factory provides as much horsepower as I can use. I don't go to the track anymore, I'm not looking for the lowest ET, fastest trap times, so mild performance enhancements are more than enough for me. I had a lot of fun back in those days, but again, my old azz isn't as game for that kind of stuff anymore.

But I certainly don't discourage anyone from maximizing their power and low ET's, whichever avenue you take to get there. Your money, your car, your time. Have fun.

[MarcInUtah]

Originally Posted by christianchevell

It is all in how you look at it. I know livernois does mustangs, so does hennesy, etc etc But the bargain I am seeing is the ten grand for livernois over other shops to install the heads after they are done porting them and a new cam and the etc etc etc with out having to change the entire exhaust and change rear ends or put nitrous in the mix and they made the nines.

You do realize that these guys are that are running 9s, or knocking on the doors on 9s are performance shops like Livernois? Evolution Performance, Lethal Performance, Revan Racing, etc...are building their cars to be some of the fastest things on the street/track. So what if they blow a motor or bust something? They do this so all of us regular street guys don't test and tune our cars and blow them up on the street. Like Livernois, if something does go "boom", they go back to R&D and rebuild. They have the luxury of having every spare part, funding, and knowledge to do this time and time again, where us every day street drivers, don't. We learn from their mistakes as well as their successes.

And FYI, I have ran nitrous and superchargers on my cars. Both are great power adders when tuned properly. Most of us who are not every day racers at the track (including myself) will probably never do any of these mods these professionals are doing anyways. I say, let them make their car as fast as they want it to be, anyway they want it to be and there is nothing "desperate" about it.

[christianchevell]

It would be desperate for a easy install guy who supposedly can install his own pulleys and nitrous, and rear end and entire exhaust etc etc when it goes wrong...like two days in the drive way can do it...lol This is a chevy site wake up oh ford guys go to a ford site. here is the bargain i researched from checking a hell of a lot of tuners.

2012 Camaro ZL1 Head/Cam, Header, CAI, Pulley, Balancer, Tune Package Installed

• 
  

Click to enlarge

Retail:


Price:
$10,449.00

SKU:
ZL1PKG3

Vendor:


Brand:
Livernois

Condition:


Weight:
1.00 LBS

Rating:
( )

Availability:


Shipping:
Calculated at checkout

Minimum Purchase:
unit(s)

Maximum Purchase:
unit(s)

:


Gift Wrapping:



Upgraded Heat Exchanger:

• Yes
• No

Quantity:
12345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728293 0Buy in bulk and save

Product Description

Livernois Motorsports CNC Cylinder Heads
Livernois Motorsports Stage 2C Camshaft
ARP Head Studs
Hardened Pushrods
GM 3-Bolt Timing Chain Sprocket
2.5" Supercharger Pulley
Double Bearing Idler Pulley
Innovators West Oversize Balancer
Oversize Crank Pulley Ring
Solid Supercharger Coupler
Cold Air Intake
NGK TR6 Spark Plugs
160 Degree Thermostat
GM 90mm Throttle Body
GM Supercharger Discharge to Intercooler Gasket
Stainless Longtube Headers & Catted Connection Pipe
Fluids
Professional Installation
Livernois Motorsports Dyno Tune
Add Livernois Motorsports Exclusive Heat Exchanger Upgrade for $2,000.00
Note: Adds 200-220 RWHP. Power levels may vary depending on testing conditions as well as individual vehicle


Well for 200 rear wheel h.p. that means it adds alot more due to the loss from the engine back. So I spend 10.5 k on livernois add a super chiller for $600 and I have a car like livernois in the high nines with just a torque converter change on my auto trans that is more consistant and cost about what I would pay for the gt 500 with the "options" like coolers, svt track pack, recaros, etc.... And I get a faster better handling car dollar for dollar with better options.

Sure it is not like the old days when changing a cam for $200 made a world of difference we are talking basically $50 for each rear wheel h.p. gain. But his would make it more of a supercar status no doubt what so ever.

And that is something the mustang connot compete with on a dollar for dollar level.

[Butcher]

Originally Posted by christianchevell

the point is they are not modding thier heads or changing the cam, as in old school rodding. They are replacing the entire exhaust system, the rear end gears both not so easy mods. Then they are boosting the thing to the max and some nitrous......not exactly the most streetable mods.

So in other words thier heads flow well .....why mess with that...they are not under cammed like chevy not wanting to out do the corvette....And they do not change the cam because of the complexity of the engine. So we have to assume it is pretty high lift from the factory.
They want to totally nut it out....the next thing comes is major money or boom.....And they have the trans geared to rev closer to the power band lower so they only go to second gear in a quarter......

I imagine thier engines are not exactly spinning slowly to get fast in the quarter and they have Nodules protruding from the wheels' bead surfaces embed in the tires Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar to help prevent the tire from slipping on the rim under hard acceleration and braking sound a like problem waiting to happen...

Who has nodules digging into thier tires on thier wheels? For a street car sounds like too many bumps and your eating at you sidewalls by the bead. And I never plan on changing my rear end gears unless they are shot because I want a more street strip car that does not have to wind up that high to get the job done, and you miss the point about dependability. Sure I would put a better pulley system even port heads and put in a bigger cam and headers. There does some a point when boost is too much and a problem waiting to happen. Old school blowers had to be rebuilt a lot more than how they have made them now. So say you want to make a engine with 9.5 compression and then you get forged pistons and the best rings etc etc....

Push the compression ratio too high with 20 lbs of boost and then shove some nitrous in it and its very hard on the internals. Thats what people do not take that much into account when first building a car just to go fast. My needs are more than going fast, I want comfortable road trips, curve hugging acceleration, and the occassional race with out worrying my way over blown car should just sit in the garage because it never gets any decent milege at all.

And by the way the stuff they are doing is not really that much of a bargain.....
Like changing from a good rear end gear to another. And changing the entire exhaust not just going to headers. Of course on the chevy side you have to change cam and port heads to really blast but it of course is so worth the upgrade due to g.m. making the motor a push rod motor ....more old school....more dependable..more desirable for things like a cam change.

It is all in how you look at it. I know livernois does mustangs, so does hennesy, etc etc But the bargain I am seeing is the ten grand for livernois over other shops to install the heads after they are done porting them and a new cam and the etc etc etc with out having to change the entire exhaust and change rear ends or put nitrous in the mix and they made the nines.

Thus livernois is as many places will making the zl1 6.2 more like it should have been by g.m. Frankly I think g.m. should have gone with the 2.3 liter supercharger too but they did not want to step on the vettes territory. And of course mustang does not have that problem.

It seems as though you don't have too much experience when it comes to having a "9 second street car". I have a couple of questions for you.

1) Are you seriously complaining about "Mustang Guys" replacing thier mufflers? Do you really think that installing headers and off-road pipes is fine, but if you replace the mufflers, that's just crazy?

2) Do you believe that you can take your car to Livernois, hand them $10,000, and you will have a 9 second car that sounds and drives like a stock car? I doubt that any shop could put your car in the 9's for just $10,000 (without nitrous) . Even if they can, nobody will think that your car is "stock".

You seem to have a problem with nitrous. I'm not sure why that is. Blowers, turbos and nitrous all accomplish the same thing. Some of those methods are better than others. However, all of them are only as good/reliable as the people who are using them.