Traction Control and Nannies

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by yzinger

Question for the folks driving with nannies off most of the time.

OK . . .

What does car do better?

Nannies off, they can't ever surprise you by introducing what's essentially a nonlinearity in the car's behavior relative to your own inputs. If/when you can trust yourself (and have enough experience to justify such an opinion), nanny intervention essentially throws you back to the beginning of your driving experience where you're first learning how cars in general behave (and yours in particular). "WTF just happened" is not a thought you want crossing your mind when the situation looks like it's headed for the toilet.

On the other hand, if you never drive harder than about 2/10ths - 3/10ths (where all of most peoples' intentional street driving lives) you aren't going to have a clue about what's supposed to happen beyond 5/10ths or what it feels like to drive up there. Let alone how to cope with it. Of course, at 3/10ths you should be nowhere near the threshold of nanny intervention.

Do you find with nannies on it is holding you back?

Based on an incident I had early on in our ownership of "her" car, they can at least potentially do just that. Let's just say I don't want my car applying one or more of its brakes and chopping throttle when an entrance ramp gets sharply tighter right before your merge into highway-speed traffic, and that I know neither me nor the car were anywhere near the point where electronic intervention should have occurred. I've got one where ABS doesn't get it quite right, too.

Are you smoking tires alot?

Last time I did that with the throttle was back around 1966, so I guess that's a 'no'.

Smoked a right rear on the track when the ABS decided to take a vacation, though.

...I guess I just don't know why you would take them off all the time? I get taking them off now and then for some sideways Sunday and stuff but otherwise why?

I guess it means that your car is going to drive exactly the same way all the time no matter how hard you're driving it. If anything, training yourself to go heavy with your right foot and spastically with the steering wheel (because the nannies let you get away with that sort of nonsense) is exactly the wrong way to learn the control you might need during any nannies-off hooning. All of your practice will tell you that the nannies are going to have your back, and you'll be much more likely to either do the wrong thing or not do the right thing.


Late edit - there has to be at least a couple of differences in outlook/philosophy between those who always disable the nannies and those who never or only rarely do.


Norm

[qcman]

Originally Posted by Spurshot

Even with full nanny stuff on in my 2014 2SS, I got a little adrenaline shot one morning on the way to work. I simply stepped on it and changed lanes to the right at about 35 mph. The road, Pacific Coast Hwy, is 6 lanes wide and the right lane is rolled off pretty heavy. That morning there was a wet spot just in the right lane from something, but not rain. I didn't expect it to be wet and the A6 downshifted a few gears (in D) and came up on the power band. Even with the full nanny, it hung the rear out pretty quick on the sloped wet road. Got my attention. So the nanny can be overwhelmed with enough throttle and adverse conditions.

I find the nannies on the SS are much less invasive than my GMC truck which intervenes constantly & aggressively. The Camaro is pretty subtle in that regard so I don't feel limited very often by them. I do think the auto is more of a handful with them off as it will switch gears at times where if I were driving a manual I wouldn't have done it.

I also think with a manual the change from gear to gear is softer as it doesn't hit the next gear at full RPM unless someone was no lift shifting like the Gen 6 manuals can do so the car kind of rolls into it. The tuned auto hits the next gear up really hard when it shifts. I also found since tuning my car the nannies are less effective it seems perhaps because of torque management removal.

[Moto-Mojo]

Somewhere between required simulator or real world training/testing for, say, anything above a certain horsepower (and style of vehicle) and not making ANY car with more than X HP is where things should probably be. But since ‘driving school’ never approaches anything near performance training is why nannies exist. Well, that and class action lawsuits.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating either scenario above in a ‘free country’ but since 800HP production cars are available to any schmo who can afford one, we all take some risk sharing the road with them. Especially when a button exists that essentially gives you the rope to hang yourself. Or me.

[silversleeper]

Someone asked for the video link and I don't think it got posted for him:
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/ea...ter-renting-it


https://sputniknews.com/society/2018...ri-rent-crash/


Rental price comes out to $675 so you don't have to convert it yourself.

[SSE 4 2SS]

A couple of things....

I used to occasionally turn the nannies off when I wanted control to get the car out of line, to throw the rear end out, not on the street though....

I agree with what Norm has said in most every comment he has in this thread. I'm not saying there are not talented drivers in this thread, or on this forum, or in the US, etc..... I am saying however that by and large, most of the drivers on the road today grew up learning to drive relatively low power front wheel drive cars.... The difference when stepping into a rear wheel drive car with relatively substantial power is significant...

I'm going to cut some of the Mustang owners a break here.... One significant point that keeps the Camaro off of youtube in crowd crushing car bashing videos is the independent rear suspension vs the live axle of the Mustang... There are significant differences in the handling and response of the two.... For pure turning stability I'll take the independent suspension.... In straight line acceleration, there is a lot to be said for the live/solid axle....I can assure you there are many folks that owe their pristine Camaro to the stabilities of the independent rear suspension.... The live/solid axle tends to swing out harder and further than an independent suspension does.... This leads to a panicked response often leaving the driver with their foot solidly planted on the gas pedal with no more control of the vehicle than the pedestrian about to be hit....

As for the comment someone made about never seeing brake lights in the Mustang videos, this is a frequent panic response to the car stepping out in a pattern the driver was not expecting.... They panic and stomp, usually where their foot is already.... This is why so often you see cars rear bumper deep in store fronts.. or 12 rows of spectators deep at a car show.... or two rows of cars deep with some truly pissed off owners of nice classic cars now wadded up pieces of crap... As a retired paramedic/FF, I've seen many wrecks where there is evidence of the tires spinning at high speeds after the vehicle had come to a stop, showing a panic response and stomping on the gas.... They lift when their panicked mind realizes they are no longer moving....

Now, to my current driving style, I don't have the factory nannies... I do have the ability to get the car sideways due to tire spin at 100+ mph.... I have video of the back end sliding side to side at speeds of 200 mph..... This was on a track and at a sanctioned event....

Doing some of the things mentioned, on the street, is grossly irresponsible.... I have a piggy back computer system that runs my traction control.... The settings I use at the track are substantially looser than I use on the street.... If not I would end up in the ditch backwards at 60, 70, 80, 85 mph.... We have those speed limits in Texas....

There is a thread on another social site where idiots are trying to get phone pictures of their cars at top speed on the street..... I'm guessing within a few days we will possibly see a story of a Camaro wadded up, hopefully as a solo vehicle, from the driver trying to hold a phone and take a photo of the speedometer at speeds of 145 plus mph.... If you have a passenger take the image, I'll give you that, but most of these idiots are still doing this on public streets....

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by Moto-Mojo

Somewhere between required simulator or real world training/testing for, say, anything above a certain horsepower (and style of vehicle) and not making ANY car with more than X HP is where things should probably be. But since ‘driving school’ never approaches anything near performance training is why nannies exist. Well, that and class action lawsuits.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating either scenario above in a ‘free country’ but since 800HP production cars are available to any schmo who can afford one, we all take some risk sharing the road with them. Especially when a button exists that essentially gives you the rope to hang yourself. Or me.

We need the ability to like a post without quoting it... but this one is worth the effort.... :r espekt:

[GatorGreg]

Originally Posted by silversleeper

Someone asked for the video link and I don't think it got posted for him:
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/ea...ter-renting-it


https://sputniknews.com/society/2018...ri-rent-crash/


Rental price comes out to $675 so you don't have to convert it yourself.

Thanks SilverSleeper, that was me who asked for the Ferrari vid. Her crash looked eerily similar to one of the Mustangs in the vid I posted earlier where it started skidding to the right and then overcorrected and skidded left into oncoming traffic.

I rented a 6th gen SS vert a while back and I remember turning off the nannies so I could do a smokey burnout - otherwise I’d recommend leaving them on unless you’re at a track with lots of crash space and no trees to hit. I leave them on in my V6 vert obviously as I don’t expect traction to ever be a problem unless I’ve really ****ed up and need the computer to save my ass.

This debate over nannies reminds me a bit of the ABS v. no ABS debate that frequently pops up on some of the bike forums. Lots of folks used to claim you’re a ***** and don’t know how to ride if you get a bike with ABS. Nowadays most of the best sport bikes come with ABS and Traction Control as standard equipment though. Here’s a good vid that illustrates its effectiveness even for pro riders. My current bike has ABS and Traction Control and I leave them on at all times unless I’m trying to do a wheelie, seen too many bike crash vids where one little front wheel lockup ends in disaster - sometimes fatal.

[christianchevell]

Grew up building old rides with solid rear "live" axles and its the same in rear wheel drives with the motor torque down on the right rear ….right rear wants to swing out right, as with hydroplaning etc usually your right rear wants to swing right and people wreck over correcting. I had to help a little old lady with one eye the other day when I was building a rock wall by a busy street....she went up on the sidewalk with her new Subaru outback, gliding onto it as she went up the ADA ramp....then she went back on to the road and immediately overcorrected to ram her wheel into the curb causing a blow out...…. SO its not just rear wheel drives that cause over correction, and traction control really helps if your built to keep from over corrections.


I can initiate traction control easily and always keep it on unless I want to feel like a old school muscle car, car corners like on rails. People invented these wonderful things called stabillitrac and traction control and yes IRS to make the car go straighter when it should be expected to do so.

Now torque management yes does more severly limit wheel spin on a automatic as it tries to save shock to the transmission and is much more prevalent on a automatic....I owned one also a 11 2ss rs vert.

With enough power to overpower traction control and put down torque some suspension mods are of course a best bet. Limited wheel hop is essential to stopping broken axles made for 400 hp and mods help considerably. For most to build their car and not do mods to the suspension is trouble just waiting to happen and saw it on here repeatedly.

I love driving my car and not wrecking and traction control saving me from having to correct very much if at all, I do not just hammer it and sure don't until its warm because that also is a big time stupid thing to do to a built motor.

And the little old lady...she had one eye and thought she saw a puppy in the four lane with a center turn...most likely a crow...my best advice...

Use it...the nannies are there to protect you from being like the little old lady and over correcting and wrecking, just as torque management is there to protect automatics and lessen poor gas mileage in conjunction with the drive by wire delay... to save tires and get to the mileage they post on the sticker....they can also and do daily save butts everywhere to make it where they can get back in the drivers seat.


And we have all seen videos of inexperienced drivers crashing, and most of them well they blame the car.... And you cant fix stupid.

Just a couple things IMO, and yes next build I am going for a new -used zl1 already sprung it on the wife, just waiting for depreciation to take effect...LOL but hey with gobs more torque down low already in my build I am happy as a bug and get compliments still and have no problem even with matching supercars with lots more $$$$ than I could ever dream of...… Because its torque that moves you. And most of the time you don't need that much..... But when you want it its realllllllllly nice to have it...…. And yes decades ago I was frying tires for a block with one legged dogs and just some 2.73s out back because I built the Chevys using lots of edelbrock or what have you and yes shift kitted the trans.... But would I get in trouble with loss of traction....only from hydroplaning on wide tires at high speed, I knew what the cars would do from daily driving, and most now do not have that growing up. And tires have come a long way from balloon tires with no traction for a reason just as they went from the old days of Bias Ply etc and wooden wheels...LOL

[SquawkVFR]

I just got caught up, and I think we’re missing part of the equation. I’m quoting this to save me some typing so bear with me...

“Maybe you already knew this, but the Camaro comes with a competitive driving mode. When activated, it relaxes the car's stability control system to allow a bit more of a slide than normal before corrective action is taken. It's activated by pushing the traction/stability control button twice. (Launch control is also activated via this way.).

Of course, holding the button down for about five seconds turns it all off. But the competitive driving mode could be useful for someone taking his or her Camaro to an autocross or high performance driving event for the first time as it allows you to learn the car's limits and still have a safety net.”

Apparently, in comp mode, you get all the benefits of full Stabilitrak, they just kick in a little later to stroke that ego. So comp mode is like having your cake and eating it too. Agreed?

The better question might be “Which mode do people normally drive in?” Not nannies on or nannies off? I find it unlikely that more than a few drive with ALL the nannies off.

To use the proper jargon; My final and honest answer is...I enjoy driving in Comp Mode so that the stabilitrak gives me more room to play if and when I so desire. (That’s the short answer)

[clemson726]

My launch control doesn't work on my M6 SS. Anybody else had that issue? Is it a function that can be tuned out?

[Pete G]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

A couple of things....

I used to occasionally turn the nannies off when I wanted control to get the car out of line, to throw the rear end out, not on the street though....

I agree with what Norm has said in most every comment he has in this thread. I'm not saying there are not talented drivers in this thread, or on this forum, or in the US, etc..... I am saying however that by and large, most of the drivers on the road today grew up learning to drive relatively low power front wheel drive cars.... The difference when stepping into a rear wheel drive car with relatively substantial power is significant...

I'm going to cut some of the Mustang owners a break here.... One significant point that keeps the Camaro off of youtube in crowd crushing car bashing videos is the independent rear suspension vs the live axle of the Mustang... There are significant differences in the handling and response of the two.... For pure turning stability I'll take the independent suspension.... In straight line acceleration, there is a lot to be said for the live/solid axle....I can assure you there are many folks that owe their pristine Camaro to the stabilities of the independent rear suspension.... The live/solid axle tends to swing out harder and further than an independent suspension does.... This leads to a panicked response often leaving the driver with their foot solidly planted on the gas pedal with no more control of the vehicle than the pedestrian about to be hit....

As for the comment someone made about never seeing brake lights in the Mustang videos, this is a frequent panic response to the car stepping out in a pattern the driver was not expecting.... They panic and stomp, usually where their foot is already.... This is why so often you see cars rear bumper deep in store fronts.. or 12 rows of spectators deep at a car show.... or two rows of cars deep with some truly pissed off owners of nice classic cars now wadded up pieces of crap... As a retired paramedic/FF, I've seen many wrecks where there is evidence of the tires spinning at high speeds after the vehicle had come to a stop, showing a panic response and stomping on the gas.... They lift when their panicked mind realizes they are no longer moving....

Now, to my current driving style, I don't have the factory nannies... I do have the ability to get the car sideways due to tire spin at 100+ mph.... I have video of the back end sliding side to side at speeds of 200 mph..... This was on a track and at a sanctioned event....

Doing some of the things mentioned, on the street, is grossly irresponsible.... I have a piggy back computer system that runs my traction control.... The settings I use at the track are substantially looser than I use on the street.... If not I would end up in the ditch backwards at 60, 70, 80, 85 mph.... We have those speed limits in Texas....

There is a thread on another social site where idiots are trying to get phone pictures of their cars at top speed on the street..... I'm guessing within a few days we will possibly see a story of a Camaro wadded up, hopefully as a solo vehicle, from the driver trying to hold a phone and take a photo of the speedometer at speeds of 145 plus mph.... If you have a passenger take the image, I'll give you that, but most of these idiots are still doing this on public streets....

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

I am saying however that by and large, most of the drivers on the road today grew up learning to drive relatively low power front wheel drive cars....

It's easy to overlook that aspect when your own introduction to driving and early years of driving was exclusively in RWD cars of various performance potential. Hard to always remember that not everybody has had the same experience or how much different it might have been for somebody else.

It would be really nice if somebody could come up with a way to correlate driving 1950's and 1960's cars (with their rather primitive levels of suspension development and tire technology) against todays cars with far more power but with far better underpinnings to go along with that. I'm not holding my breath, however.

One significant point that keeps the Camaro off of youtube in crowd crushing car bashing videos is the independent rear suspension vs the live axle of the Mustang... There are significant differences in the handling and response of the two.... For pure turning stability I'll take the independent suspension.... In straight line acceleration, there is a lot to be said for the live/solid axle....I can assure you there are many folks that owe their pristine Camaro to the stabilities of the independent rear suspension.... The live/solid axle tends to swing out harder and further than an independent suspension does....

Mind if I stipulate that the basic design of any IRS must also be well thought out? Most of today's are, but it wasn't so long ago that one IRS that ended up with a recall-level issue of drop-throttle oversteer - that was "solved" by retuning the stability control instead of fixing the IRS itself. Crudely, that's fixing the crutch instead of setting the broken leg and indicative that that particular IRS wasn't as well-designed as it should have been. I hope that car design these days isn't intentionally using stability control to cover for shortcomings in the suspension.

I can think of a couple of technical reasons why a stick-axle car is likely to step out further and probably more abruptly than a (well-designed) IRS car. Perhaps it's the abruptness that's more responsible for creating panic???


Norm

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

It would be really nice if somebody could come up with a way to correlate driving 1950's and 1960's cars (with their rather primitive levels of suspension development and tire technology) against todays cars with far more power but with far better underpinnings to go along with that.

In my mind there is a dual meaning in this, relative.... The underpinnings were substantially less capable in design limitations and engineering knowledge at the time, indicating the departures from straight line driving were greater in scope, leading to a greater degree of "learning" by the drivers of these cars.... With the advances in design, and age of the said drivers, the departures are less dramatic and the recovery abilities increased as secondary affect.....

Mind if I stipulate that the basic design of any IRS must also be well thought out? Most of today's are, but it wasn't so long ago that one IRS that ended up with a recall-level issue of drop-throttle oversteer - that was "solved" by retuning the stability control instead of fixing the IRS itself. Crudely, that's fixing the crutch instead of setting the broken leg and indicative that that particular IRS wasn't as well-designed as it should have been. I hope that car design these days isn't intentionally using stability control to cover for shortcomings in the suspension.

I may not be familiar with he particular case you are referencing, however, I am familiar with the saying, "oversteer is when the passenger gets scared, understeer is when the driver gets scared." I'm well familiar with both cases in real life events and can state the above is a true statement.... I'll also say in the case of the 5th Gen Camaro, the IRS design was well thought out and implemented for it's purpose.... I'll also state that a relatively minor upgrade in power requires a substantial upgrade in suspension to "keep up" with the power.... If not, the driver will soon find themselves in a situation where the above statement occurs...

I can think of a couple of technical reasons why a stick-axle car is likely to step out further and probably more abruptly than a (well-designed) IRS car. Perhaps it's the abruptness that's more responsible for creating panic???

Agreed....

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

In my mind there is a dual meaning in this, relative.... The underpinnings were substantially less capable in design limitations and engineering knowledge at the time, indicating the departures from straight line driving were greater in scope, leading to a greater degree of "learning" by the drivers of these cars.... With the advances in design, and age of the said drivers, the departures are less dramatic and the recovery abilities increased as secondary affect.....

Sounds about right from a boomer's perspective and experience. Makes me wonder if it's the millennials who face the bigger transition, coming from FWD that understeers pretty much no matter what you do.

I may not be familiar with he particular case you are referencing

2010 Lexus GX460. How Lexus chose to fix it (first paragraph).

I'll also state that a relatively minor upgrade in power requires a substantial upgrade in suspension to "keep up" with the power.... If not, the driver will soon find themselves in a situation where the above statement occurs...

Very true. And engine power is the easy one to make 50+% better.


Norm