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Old 07-15-2018, 05:58 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by srcstc View Post
Gonna take a while to make up the money lost trading in a 16 for a 17.


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Guess I should have been clearer in my post... lol. I bought the 17 LT in addition to the 16 2SS.
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Old 07-15-2018, 05:58 PM   #16
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I can understand how you feel OP. I have a Hellcat and my father-in-law has 17SS. While mine has noticeably more power, his is well more mannered and refined. Do I like one over the other? Not really. They are such different cars that I dont feel they really are comparable to each other. I love them both for what they have to offer. You know the old car saleman's saying. There is a seat for every hiney.
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Old 07-15-2018, 06:08 PM   #17
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Nice slam post about how you hate Challenger. Think of it this way, though. That big ole sloppy handling slow shifting Challenger is kicking both the Mustang and Camaro's butt in sales.

The things you complain about is par for the course. The Challenger is a modern day muscle car, not a sports car. The Camaro, especially the 6th gen, is more sports car like than it has ever heen.

Instead of marketing more CUVs, GM could have developed a competitor to the hot selling Challenger and maybe called it...oh let's say...the Chevelle. A car like that would sell like hotcakes to people who like the Camaro but need just a little more room.

Unfortunately, GM won't do anything wise like that.
My post was never intended to be a slam on anything, simply my honest impression of the Challenger I've been driving for a couple weeks. I honestly wanted to like the Challenger because I used to be a big fan of Mopar. My very first car was a 67 Belvedere GTX with the 440 Super Commando! Fact is, the new Challenger just feels too much like the Challengers of yesteryear for this age of high-tech automobiles! It has plenty of technology, just feels like an old car updated with a touch screen to me. The Challengers may be outselling Camaros, who really cares? I much prefer not seeing an identical car across every intersection I come too anyway.
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Old 07-15-2018, 06:17 PM   #18
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I didn't say it was just due to Transformers. It was the combination of Transformers and the return of the nameplate. The pent up demand would have dried out most likely by the 2012-2013 MY, but the 5th gen remained strong through out the generation.



I am also not blaming just the decreasing halo from the transformers franchise either for the 6th gens downfall. It's part of the equation. The Challenger has been the same car for the last 10 years on the same 20 year old platform with some styling updates along the way. It was bringing up the rear in a very distant third until Dodge slapped a 707 HP engine into it and successfully marketed it. Cause if it is the styling of the Challenger that is causing the uprising, it wouldn't have been averaging 3000 sales a month when Mustang and 5th gen Camaro was pulling in 7000-10,000 sales a month before the Hellcat. The yuppies are buying the Challenger now because of the Hellcat. Sort of like people who buy a 320i and slap a M3 badge on it because they want people to think they have a Hellcat instead of a V6 Challenger or R/T. You can also argue with the market shifting towards CUV's/practical cars, the Challenger is the only vehicle in the segment that has the most practicality to sell to the family.



A Chevelle is just not going to happen. GM doesn't have a platform for it, would still overlap with the Camaro too much, and they are done with just straight line machines.
Well, remember Dodge still has the Charger which probably has the most practicality of them all since it has four doors. The Challenger model fits in that niche where no other automaker has a good presence in these days. A relatively fast roomy car with heritage styling cues from the past.

I don't think people are buying lower end model Challengers because they can slap a Hellcat badge on it and make people think it's a Hellcat. They're buying Challengers because they offer the closest approximation to what the old muscle cars provided in their younger days.

Also, Dodge didn't screw up the design of the Challenger yet. They kept it mostly the same adding tasteful tweaks (here and there) and adding more power over the years.

I agree with the fact that GM doesn't have a platform to do a Chevelle model on. They really didn't have a platform for the 5th gen either, but they made due with a fullsized platform borrowed from Holden and designed a beautiful retro design body around it. Now, they could've also done a Chevelle model off the Zeta too, but that is a moot point now.
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Old 07-15-2018, 06:34 PM   #19
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Another thread that evolves into a discussion about Camaro sales. Since sales dictate "success," let us all agree that the Toyota Camry is the best non-truck/CUV/SUV offered in the United States.
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Old 07-15-2018, 07:00 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by motorhead View Post
I can understand how you feel OP. I have a Hellcat and my father-in-law has 17SS. While mine has noticeably more power, his is well more mannered and refined. Do I like one over the other? Not really. They are such different cars that I dont feel they really are comparable to each other. I love them both for what they have to offer. You know the old car saleman's saying. There is a seat for every hiney.
I'm a current Challenger R/T owner who ordered a '19 2SS. At the time I bought my Challenger, it was about the heritage, looks, and straight line power. I could have bought a Camaro, but Dodge sold me by their use of marketing. I qualify for GM employee discount and still was sold. I love the car, but now it's time to try the "sports car" version of a "muscle car". No regrets. Two entirely different driving and feeling type cars. I can hardly stand the wait!!
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Old 07-15-2018, 08:20 PM   #21
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Another thread that evolves into a discussion about Camaro sales. Since sales dictate "success," let us all agree that the Toyota Camry is the best non-truck/CUV/SUV offered in the United States.
What planet are you living on? Sales is everything for the automakers.

Isn't that why the 4th gen F-body was cancelled at the end of '02? No sales or weak sales means less money available the suites at GM will allocate towards a heavily revised or totally new platform program.

CUV's are selling hot so that's why we have a new Blazer for '19 that looks like...well...another CUV with Camaro styling cues.

Ford's decision to bow out of the sedan market and concentrate on trucks, CUV's and the Mustang is primarily due to slow sales of sedans in the marketplace.

The automakers won't continue to make what doesn't sell.
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Old 07-15-2018, 08:34 PM   #22
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What planet are you living on? Sales is everything for the automakers.

Isn't that why the 4th gen F-body was cancelled at the end of '02? No sales or weak sales means less money available the suites at GM will allocate towards a heavily revised or totally new platform program.

CUV's are selling hot so that's why we have a new Blazer for '19 that looks like...well...another CUV with Camaro styling cues.

Ford's decision to bow out of the sedan market and concentrate on trucks, CUV's and the Mustang is primarily due to slow sales of sedans in the marketplace.

The automakers won't continue to make what doesn't sell.

Profits is what matters to automakers. If you can make $5 billion selling 60,000 a year instead of $3 billion at 100,000 a year, you would be very happy with that. Apple is a prime example of this. Samsung consistently handily outsells Apple in smartphones, but Apple owns everyone on the money they make with the iPhone. In fact they own 79% of the profits in the smartphone market with only 15% marketshare. Only GM of course knows the profit margins and how much money they are making off the Camaro, but volume isn't everything. GM's bankruptcy is to show what happens when volume is put above all else.



F-Body was cancelled because it could not meet crash test regs that were going into effect in 2003 and it was not worth the investment to redesign the platform or move the twins to a different platform such as Sigma. From what I gather, Sigma was never really an option for Camaro.



Automakers won't continue to make what doesn't generate a profit.
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Old 07-15-2018, 08:37 PM   #23
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[QUOTE=gringo;10250701]What planet are you living on? Sales is everything for the automakers.

Isn't that why the 4th gen F-body was cancelled at the end of '02? No sales or weak sales means less money available the suites at GM will allocate towards a heavily revised or totally new platform program.

CUV's are selling hot so that's why we have a new Blazer for '19 that looks like...well...another CUV with Camaro styling cues.

Ford's decision to bow out of the sedan market and concentrate on trucks, CUV's and the Mustang is primarily due to slow sales of sedans in the marketplace.

The automakers won't continue to make what doesn't sell.[/QUOT

I've yet to buy a car based on production numbers. I've always bought cars that moved me and struck a cord with whatever performance and/or styling queue that spoke to me! I understand bean counters rule the production line, but that never entered into my decision making process.

I Like the look of the Challenger styling from the outside and the straight-line performance of the upper level monsters, but driving this v6 rental car version is totally uninspiring. My LT Camaro is basically a rental car level Camaro too, but it is so much more engaging, and feels so much more inspired and modern...in my opinion.
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Old 07-15-2018, 08:38 PM   #24
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word!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevyRules View Post
Profits is what matters to automakers. If you can make $5 billion selling 60,000 a year instead of $3 billion at 100,000 a year, you would be very happy with that. Apple is a prime example of this. Samsung consistently handily outsells Apple in smartphones, but Apple owns everyone on the money they make with the iPhone. In fact they own 79% of the profits in the smartphone market with only 15% marketshare. Only GM of course knows the profit margins and how much money they are making off the Camaro, but volume isn't everything. GM's bankruptcy is to show what happens when volume is put above all else.



F-Body was cancelled because it could not meet crash test regs that were going into effect in 2003 and it was not worth the investment to redesign the platform or move the twins to a different platform such as Sigma. From what I gather, Sigma was never really an option for Camaro.



Automakers won't continue to make what doesn't generate a profit.
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:17 PM   #25
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Apples vs Oranges.

Chevy is not Apple.
Dodge / Ford is not Samsung.

Apple's model is not built on budget items, their model is based on top tier pricing.
Samsung's model is all over the place, from budget to still a budget compared to Apple.

Yes, Apple's revenue leads the pack (62% to 90% profit) vs Samsung (16% to 18%).

But GM is not seeing profits like that from Camaro anymore than Ford is seeing from Mustang.

This is a numbers of units game at this level of vehicle (this is not a Lamborghini or Ferrari).

The 4th generation Camaro was cancelled, due to low sales.

While there are press releases directly from GM on this, here is a quote from CNN

"Chevy, a unit of General Motors, decided almost a year ago to discontinue the model due to a drop in demand in the sports car market, where sales have fallen 53 percent from 1990 to 2000."

(all you have to do is google "GM to Discontinue Camaro, Firebird")

GM went into bankruptcy for not being able to turn a profit on its cars, thanks to the strong unions.

GM was tied with Toyota for global sales as late as 2007 (prior to that GM was #1 for years).

By the time of their bankruptcy, they were operating at or close to even.

In 2006, they attempted to cut fixed costs in NA, by spending $6.8 BILLION to buyout 35,000 hourly employees (~$200K per).

Think about that, $6.8 Billion to receive nothing in return from it, other than not having to pay out wages / benefits going forward.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevyRules View Post
Profits is what matters to automakers. If you can make $5 billion selling 60,000 a year instead of $3 billion at 100,000 a year, you would be very happy with that. Apple is a prime example of this. Samsung consistently handily outsells Apple in smartphones, but Apple owns everyone on the money they make with the iPhone. In fact they own 79% of the profits in the smartphone market with only 15% marketshare. Only GM of course knows the profit margins and how much money they are making off the Camaro, but volume isn't everything. GM's bankruptcy is to show what happens when volume is put above all else.



F-Body was cancelled because it could not meet crash test regs that were going into effect in 2003 and it was not worth the investment to redesign the platform or move the twins to a different platform such as Sigma. From what I gather, Sigma was never really an option for Camaro.



Automakers won't continue to make what doesn't generate a profit.
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:27 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by ChevyRules View Post
Profits is what matters to automakers. If you can make $5 billion selling 60,000 a year instead of $3 billion at 100,000 a year, you would be very happy with that. Apple is a prime example of this. Samsung consistently handily outsells Apple in smartphones, but Apple owns everyone on the money they make with the iPhone. In fact they own 79% of the profits in the smartphone market with only 15% marketshare. Only GM of course knows the profit margins and how much money they are making off the Camaro, but volume isn't everything. GM's bankruptcy is to show what happens when volume is put above all else.
GM's bankruptcy is also the result of the myopic concentration on trucks and truck based SUV's without any long term planning of allocating resources for other platforms in other segments. That's why we got a 5th gen Camaro based off a fullsized Holden platform.

The high profit margins on those truck based SUV's made them easy money no doubt, but when the market suddenly changed they had nothing really competitive to offer.


Quote:
The F-Body was cancelled because it could not meet crash test regs that were going into effect in 2003 and it was not worth the investment to redesign the platform or move the twins to a different platform such as Sigma. From what I gather, Sigma was never really an option for Camaro.
That's just it though. It wasn't worth the investment because they were literally money hungry on the high profit margins from those trucks and SUV's. They were not willing to invest a chunk of that money to revise the F-body after the '02MY.

I don't buy the crash test regs argument because Ford was able to meet them with the Fox body based SN-95 Mustang in '03. The crash test regulations was just an excuse to let the platform die because sales were down in the last few years. Instead of modifying or developing a new platform, the money was used for more models and variants based off the highly profitable truck based platforms (Hummer, SSR etc.).


Quote:
Automakers won't continue to make what doesn't generate a profit.
True, but if sales get low enough they will just cancel it and invest in something more lucrative like CUV's.
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:42 PM   #27
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OP thinks the Challenger drives like a boat. This has nothing to do with sales. Not sure why it degenerated into that.

Big sales doesn't make it handle any better.


Those that love the Challenger so much they have to defend it at every turn should be driving one. The last thing we need is for the Camaro to become a barge on wheels.
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:44 PM   #28
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No, I have a 16 2SS and added a 17LT as a commuter car!



My uncle advised me to do the same to keep the miles Low long term. Iím just not sure I would follow the game plan, now that Iím behind the wheel of the 2SS.
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