Motor Trend Head to Head: 2015 Camaro 1LE vs. new 2015 Mustang 5.0 GT PP

[Billy10mm]

Originally Posted by GONIF

So what do I do after the first initial stop ? I am going to be on those brakes more then once. And don't think for 1 moment that a 376 ci engine with over head cams will not produce more power and be able to rev higher. Every one except Chrysler and Gm have gone over to over head cams on their 4 cylinder V6, v8, v12, and v16 high performance motors . The Ford Coyote engine is only 302 ci and makes the same or more power then the 376 ci LS3 . Time for GM to step into the 21st century . What the Camaro needs is a 500 hp NA motor for the base Camaro SS ,and monster brakes . Then they can kick Fords ass .And while were at it how about a duel clutch trans . Don't get me wrong I like my 1LE and GM products ,but I want to be buying the best American car or truck made . I have bought 24 new GM vehicles so far and I see no reason to stop ,but I don't want to be beat by no stinking ford.

The LS3 is lighter, dimensionally smaller, has a better BSFC, and puts out more power under the curve than, if I'm not mistaken, every other normally aspirated V8 sold in America. It puts out more torque and is lighter than the 8 found in the Ferrari 458. We pay no gas guzzler tax, and in the more aerodynamic and lighter Vette body/chassis, it got 30 miles per gallon on the highway.

And this is at least the second thread where you've talked about a "duel" clutch transmission. A duel is what you have when you walk 10 steps from your opponent, turn, and shoot them. A dual is a two-some. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel

[Spoolin]

Originally Posted by GONIF

And while were at it how about a duel clutch trans.

I think you should read up a bit more on dual clutch transmissions. GM's 8L90's shift faster than they do. Why you would want a slower shifting transmission...I don't know.

Just because exotics and supercars have "X" technology, doesn't make it great, let alone the best option out there.
I've built & paid for high dollar engines for my race truck that had top name brand products fail, and replaced those parts with OEM parts and never had another problem.


Racers talk lap times...
Ricers talk name brands.

[Punk_rider]

Originally Posted by Cody6.2

Since when does a road course test (with a biased driver) establish which car is better? The new GT still beats the Camaro in the 1/4 and you can see out of it. I'd also mention the interior looks better, stereo sounds better but I'm sure people will disagree. All in all this best lap around a track defining a car is pathetic.

Since this H2H was about track packs ... I guess track times are relevant to figure out who's better then ... You can think th interior is better, but THAT is irrelevant to determine who's better at the track ...

So, few thoughts about this competition:
Is Ford so crappy that they can't beat a heavy older car? Anyone could beat it, just need to want it and put the price on it.

So why Ford failed? Because Mustang sold its soul to globalization. I think it's all the point here.

We knew that from the first look at the car. I can understand some people liking its look, but I think no one would deny the fact this is not an american pony/muscle car look anymore; They have chosen to sell the car worldwide, and designed it this way, with this euro/japanese/worldwide look.

Then they sold their hearts with that shameful 4 banger.

So why aim at Camaro? why aim at a true american car? I think Ford couldn't care less about getting their a** kicked by a Camaro. They want to beat GM only in sales.

To me, this test is relevant to the fact Ford isn't an american brand anymore.

Being european, living in europe and driving a Camaro 1LE, I can tell you people LOVE my car. Almost all of them, I get thumbs up and smiles all the time. Still, none of these people would buy this car.

I may be mistaken but I'm feeling the global Mustang will be a fail too (at least in europe) because even if mustang is famous, people still have this feeling american cars are crappy. The car looks european, seems to drive european but is not european.

To me, the muscle car war isn't dead but changed fighters. on the field is now only Camaro and Chally. Mustang is now nothing more than a fusion coupe.

I won't even care anymore about Mustang's reviews. different planets, differents areas.

Unless the 2016 Camaro follows that shameful path Mustang just opened

Being honest, being in France, when I see a Mustang and when a Mustang sees my Camaro, we flash lights and wave at each others. We feel like part of a single family, the family of american cars lovers. We do the same with Corvettes.

I can tell you that I won't flash any lights when seeing a new Mustang. This car is definitely not part of the family. with global sales, look and engines, it will just be some kinda other volkswagen to us ...

[trashmanssd]

Just want to Subscribe Enjoying this thread.

[DRKS1D3]

Originally Posted by Cody6.2

Since when does a road course test (with a biased driver) establish which car is better? The new GT still beats the Camaro in the 1/4 and you can see out of it. I'd also mention the interior looks better, stereo sounds better but I'm sure people will disagree. All in all this best lap around a track defining a car is pathetic.

Looks are SUBJECTIVE. Get over it. The two year old 1LE beat the new Mustang PP. It's a done deal. And yes, they are the same thing. Both of these cars are a "track pack" added to the base V8 car of each manufacturer. If Ford didn't add enough performance to its "track pack", that is on them. They were free to choose whatever performance mods they thought were necessary. It's their car.

[Stingray]

Even Jalopnik summed it up straight to the point....

http://jalopnik.com/is-the-2015-must...a-c-1646622028

"All I can say is that the 2016 Camaro is supposed to be lighter while its power figure will certainly go higher. If the 2015 Mustang GT with a handling pack can't beat the crap out of a beefed up Camaro at its launch both on the road and on track, Ford might want to start thinking about suspension upgrades."

[trashmanssd]

Wonder if Ford did not really aim for the 1LE with the performance pack, but used it to lower the "Starting MSRP for the V8 GT" so they could claim in commercials and ads how it start below a Camaro SS or Challenger R/T. Just a thought maybe they plan on aiming for it with a specific Model Mustang Like the GT350. I looked online a lot more mustang GT's seem to have the PP at quick glance looked to be over 50 percent (because its what a V8 sports car needs in it). Probably a combo of reasons, also they were talking about slight loss in weight in most the speculation articles I read and yet it gained nearly 200 pounds. That might have been something they just couldn't overcome and stay in the price points they want. Could put wider tires and rims in the PP but then the PP goes up to 3500 and the take on that package goes way down and they loss profits. when they can wait do it as a Boss or SVT or Shelby and get an extra 10k for that package and boost profits. Lets not forget Ford didn't need the bailout thats because they are better at making money has nothing to do with being better at making cars.

[newmoon]

The Ford forums are starting to cry foul about the weight of the fully loaded GT and even what octane fuel was used in it. Amazing! The problem is that the GT just isn't composed in the corners you can clearly see it.

Now this isn't a problem IMO as most Mustang fans are mainly concerned about straight line performance, the problem is the new GT is no faster than the old GT, and will be several tenths behind the Challenger R/T Scat Pack. This is what really hurts. There is no reason for Ford not to have given the new GT enough power to run the same times in the 1/4 as it's benchmark Boss.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by serpent

Bolded in red how does that actually add performance? Unique chassis tuning? Lol, did you watch the video? More like chassis tuning with normal road behavior in mind (soft dampening). Almost half of that list is joke.

Your statement in post #42 "The Mustang PP is not a track oriented 1LE". The Performance Pack from Ford is positioned directly against the 1LE offering from Chevrolet.

Mustang GT: $32,925 + PP ($2,495) = $35,420
Camaro SS: $34,500 + 1LE ($3,500) = $38,000

If you are trying to say the PP is not AS track oriented for the GT as the 1LE package from Chevrolet is for the Camaro, then that is correct, but NOT what you stated previously.

I never said, nor implied that ALL items in the PP or 1LE package contribute to performance. The descriptions were copied directly from each manufacturers "build" site. Does the matte hood on the 1LE make it faster on a track? Does the alcantera shifter make it faster on a track? The PP as a whole, enhances the performance of the GT on the track, does it not? It may do a poor job of it, but that is unquestionably the intent.

Originally Posted by serpent

Not only is the package in the 1LE more expensive it is more extensive, they even have sway bars listed diameter size and tire specs.

What I said above. The descriptions were copied directly from each manufacturers "build" site.

Originally Posted by serpent

No one else to blame but ford for going with shitty tires (yet again) and only keeping up with what it replaced ('14 5.0). This is my first and very well will be my last mustang. I dont own either car this topic is about, but wanted to see Ford try harder.

We all did. The have been touting the S550's improved handling and track performance vs the Boss. They simply didn't deliver.

Originally Posted by serpent

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179027
Thats a thread from 2011, you can bet that the project was still in the planning stages in 2010. No shit a car that was planned/tested with track performance in mind is able to out do a new car with a newly designed suspension that only has minimal upgrades. The 1LE was designed to take down the Boss in a road course and it does, it can even take down a Laguna Seca Boss in some courses.

Again, post #42 you stated "this is also a car that just debuted in comparison to a car that has been worked since 2009 (1LE)"

The 1LE has NOT been in production since 2009. Your own link above even proves this. The specs were released as a SEMA car in late 2011. GM didn't announce an official production car until March 27, 2012. Media events and first drives were not conducted until August 2012. So Ford has from late 2012 until 2014 to design a PP to compete with the 1LE for the S550 platform. They obviously brought their "B" game.

Originally Posted by serpent

Ford said the s550 can take down a boss on the track has yet to be seen, but after reading that bogus "unique chassis tuning", i think they are blowing smoke.

Agree

Originally Posted by serpent

Lol, tires are invalid? square goodyear supercar g2> 255/275 pirelli p zero. Have you seen what the supercar g2 tires look like? If its invalid to you, what are the times you've pulled in your camaro? What is your wheel/tire setup?

I never said tires are invalid did I? I said in post #48 "We've already heard the "tires" argument - it's invalid."

Could Ford not purchase 285's for their cars? Can Ford not buy Goodyear's? Engineers choose tires and sizes to suit their unique needs in contributing to the overall chassis and performance package. Ford chose 255 Pirelli's.

Originally Posted by serpent

Like I said earlier Ford missed the mark and probably waiting for GM to see what they release. Competition is good for all of us, I'm glad Ford finally has a GT (2011+) that can beat an SS. It was sad seeing the shitty 2v GT's get punted left and right during the 2000s.

This is what we've all been saying. Why Ford would play defense when Chevrolet has all the momentum right now is beyond me. The S550 should have come out guns blazing and retake the sales crown.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by Cody6.2

Since when does a road course test (with a biased driver) establish which car is better? The new GT still beats the Camaro in the 1/4 and you can see out of it. I'd also mention the interior looks better, stereo sounds better but I'm sure people will disagree. All in all this best lap around a track defining a car is pathetic.

Some of us demand more from a car than acceleration. The Camaro is the complete performance package. Interior and visibility can improve, yes. To state it simply, a lap around a track will challenge a car in ways a drag strip cannot. If you're so hung up on interior and stereo, I believe Lexus has some nice offerings for you.

Originally Posted by trashmanssd

Wonder if Ford did not really aim for the 1LE with the performance pack, but used it to lower the "Starting MSRP for the V8 GT" so they could claim in commercials and ads how it start below a Camaro SS or Challenger R/T. Just a thought maybe they plan on aiming for it with a specific Model Mustang Like the GT350. I looked online a lot more mustang GT's seem to have the PP at quick glance looked to be over 50 percent (because its what a V8 sports car need in it). Probably a combo of reasons, also they were talking about slight loss in weight in most the speculation articles I read and yet it gained nearly 200 pounds. That might have been something they just couldn't overcome and stay in the price points they want. Could put wider tires and rims in the PP but then the PP goes up to 3500 and the take on that package goes way down and they loss profits. when they can wait do it as a Boss or SVT or Shelby and get an extra 10k for that package and boost profits. Lets not forget Ford didn't need the bailout thats because they are better at making money has nothing to do with being better at making cars.

A lot of truth in this. The MBA's running Ford have been profitable, no question. But at what cost? FoMoCo offers only two enthusiast-oriented products - the Mustang and the Raptor. Dependability, initial quality, and customer service remain at or below industry average. But they are turning profits...

Originally Posted by newmoon

The Ford forums are starting to cry foul about the weight of the fully loaded GT and even what octane fuel was used in it. Amazing! The problem is that the GT just isn't composed in the corners you can clearly see it.

Now this isn't a problem IMO as most Mustang fans are mainly concerned about straight line performance, the problem is the new GT is no faster than the old GT, and will be several tenths behind the Challenger R/T Scat Pack. This is what really hurts. There is no reason for Ford not to have given the new GT enough power to run the same times in the 1/4 as it's benchmark Boss.

For once we agree!

[Norm Peterson]

Fast shifting is all but irrelevant during an HPDE road course session - arguably the 1LE's mission as far as hard driving is concerned.


I do agree with you about not adding all sorts of new technology mainly for the snob appeal.


Norm

[Grabber]

Not surprising that the new S550 mustang can't catch up to the 1LE. The 1LE is a badass car for sure and GM knew what they were doing.

IMHO - Ford knows what they are doing on Drag Strips Chevy/GM knows what they are doing on Road Courses, but, both brands complete well against each other on both.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Billy10mm

The LS3 is lighter, dimensionally smaller, has a better BSFC, and puts out more power under the curve than, if I'm not mistaken, every other normally aspirated V8 sold in America. It puts out more torque and is lighter than the 8 found in the Ferrari 458. We pay no gas guzzler tax, and in the more aerodynamic and lighter Vette body/chassis, it got 30 miles per gallon on the highway.

I might add the old LS3 easily holds way more HP reliably bone stock (like 700+ at the crank) than the 5.0. And the compact LS leaves lots of room around the engine to work under the hood. The LS engines have only 1 cam. Big difference. Ever look under the hood of a 5.0? Simple is good and tech is cool. Both are great engines. Give me simple.

If you want to track your car the choice is easy. This is paramont to a portion of 1LE owners and fun for the rest of us Internet racers.

The 1LE was crowned the most fun to drive. Isn't that for all of us the number 1 reason we buy these cars?

I have added some careful suspension mods to my 1LE, and it's even more fun.

A dual clutch is a more advanced transmission no doubt, but the driver no longer matters, anybody can rip off gears. It will not be long before a computer can drive a car around a race track faster than any human. Count on it. I want to stay involved.

[SEVEN-OH JOE]

Originally Posted by Grabber

Not surprising that the new S550 mustang can't catch up to the 1LE.

I'm NOT surprized, either.

This puts an exclamation mark on the Car and Driver Lightning Lap results of the BOSS LS vs. 1LE, where the 1LE trounced the LS. People cried "FOUL! NOT same day, NOT same driver!", they screamed.

It apparently doesn't matter.

If Ford set their benchmark for the GT PP as the BOSS, they obviously set their sights 'WAY LOW. And I'm sure Ford has had a 1LE in their garage since its release. They must enjoy driving it, instead of studying it and learning from it.