[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Funny though how in other posts you ex-GM guys claim that it's the market, not the government, dictating (I specifically recall you James saying it would happen anyway because of the global shift to SUVs and eventually EVs, so the government isn't forcing anything via CAFE, just acknowledging the trend). Isn't this a bit of a contradiction?

No. I’d need to write a frickin’ book to explain the gory details, but the readers digest version is that the domestic automakers pretty much held the pen that drafted the EPA regulations. The market can only buy what’s available in the market. By HEAVILY influencing the drafting of the footprint curves, the domestics tipped the scales to favor more profitable SUVs and pickups where imports do not have a strong position. It’s why we have $80k pickups. So the portfolios shifted from sedans to SUVs, CUVs, and pickups. From there it falls to customer choice to pick from what the automakers place on the lot. Asian automakers are disadvantaged when it comes to pickups (Google chicken tax) and continue to offer sedans. Their customers are cool with that, so they’ll keep buying Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia sedans. But those companies also had to add CUVs and SUVs to their portfolios to match what the domestics are pushing their customer base to consider.

When we are talking EVs, the CAFE curves don’t matter, so Trucks have no built in advantage over Cars. Real world, Cars will get better range than Trucks, so I project that Cars will make a comeback.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

…

Plus this is a classic example of "receivers" optimizing to artificial metrics, which then defeats the original purpose—the bigger, more expensive and polluting, the better because of CAFE metrics, real world impact be damned. Metrics weaponization is another term that comes to mind.

Spot on.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

No. I’d need to write a frickin’ book to explain the gory details, but the readers digest version is that the domestic automakers pretty much held the pen that drafted the EPA regulations. The market can only buy what’s available in the market. By HEAVILY influencing the drafting of the footprint curves, the domestics tipped the scales to favor more profitable SUVs and pickups where imports do not have a strong position. It’s why we have $80k pickups. So the portfolios shifted from sedans to SUVs, CUVs, and pickups. From there it falls to customer choice to pick from what the automakers place on the lot. Asian automakers are disadvantaged when it comes to pickups (Google chicken tax) and continue to offer sedans. Their customers are cool with that, so they’ll keep buying Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia sedans. But those companies also had to add CUVs and SUVs to their portfolios to match what the domestics are pushing their customer base to consider.

When we are talking EVs, the CAFE curves don’t matter, so Trucks have no built in advantage over Cars. Real world, Cars will get better range than Trucks, so I project that Cars will make a comeback.

Thanks a lot, no need to write a book just for me/us (although you may want to consider that, your insights are super valuable, seriously). So okay, this makes sense, but only somewhat, because it also sounds like domestic manufacturers simply yielded the car market to Asia when helping the government produce EPA regulations that then heavily favored SUVs and pickup trucks.

They could also have pushed for import duties instead, for example, or any other measure that favors them vs imports. All I'm saying is it's strange how easily they surrendered, if that's how it went down.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Thanks a lot, no need to write a book just for me/us (although you may want to consider that, your insights are super valuable, seriously). So okay, this makes sense, but only somewhat, because it also sounds like domestic manufacturers simply yielded the car market to Asia when helping the government produce EPA regulations that then heavily favored SUVs and pickup trucks.

They could also have pushed for import duties instead, for example, or any other measure that favors them vs imports. All I'm saying is it's strange how easily they surrendered, if that's how it went down.

Some Asian companies build more cars in the US than some domestics. Some domestics import more cars into the US than Asians.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Some Asian companies build more cars in the US than some domestics. Some domestics import more cars into the US than Asians.

They sure do now, but isn't that a relatively new, shall I say, post-CAFE phenomenon?

Also, GM and others would import way less if they couldn't get away with slave, pardon, cheap labor in other countries. The Asians tend to favor the long game and now, a few decades in, their strategy has begun paying dividends. But, let's not turn this into a policital discussion, I think I understand your points

[1fastz28]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Personally I’m surprised Malibu survived.

I'm sure this was mostly due to fleet sales for rentals.

[detltu]

Thinking about picking up a 24, but a little disappointed there probably won't be anything particularly special for the last year. We will see what the panther includes but I don't have my hopes up. GM only seems to care about the vette. Challenger and Mustang are constantly upping their game. Camaro released the ZL1 1LE and sat on it for 5 years. Love it if they would prove me wrong.

[triggerjerk]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

No. I’d need to write a frickin’ book to explain the gory details, but the readers digest version is that the domestic automakers pretty much held the pen that drafted the EPA regulations. The market can only buy what’s available in the market. By HEAVILY influencing the drafting of the footprint curves, the domestics tipped the scales to favor more profitable SUVs and pickups where imports do not have a strong position. It’s why we have $80k pickups. So the portfolios shifted from sedans to SUVs, CUVs, and pickups. From there it falls to customer choice to pick from what the automakers place on the lot. Asian automakers are disadvantaged when it comes to pickups (Google chicken tax) and continue to offer sedans. Their customers are cool with that, so they’ll keep buying Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia sedans. But those companies also had to add CUVs and SUVs to their portfolios to match what the domestics are pushing their customer base to consider.

When we are talking EVs, the CAFE curves don’t matter, so Trucks have no built in advantage over Cars. Real world, Cars will get better range than Trucks, so I project that Cars will make a comeback.

What is your take on Dodge making the Demon 170 and getting it past CAFE and emissions on pump gas? I can't believe they have a 900hp (on pump gas) OHV production engine past emissions but hats off to them.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by triggerjerk

What is your take on Dodge making the Demon 170 and getting it past CAFE and emissions on pump gas? I can't believe they have a 900hp (on pump gas) OHV production engine past emissions but hats off to them.

Didnt they pay a bunch of money for credits? maybe I am off base, so they are saying buy my 100K challenger instead of GM saying buy my 100K hummer that we will make a shitton more money on

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by triggerjerk

What is your take on Dodge making the Demon 170 and getting it past CAFE and emissions on pump gas? I can't believe they have a 900hp (on pump gas) OHV production engine past emissions but hats off to them.

They are already under water with CAFE and either paying fines or buying credits from other automakers (Tesla?). The Demon 170 will be in such low volume that it won’t impact CAFE too much more. Hats off to them for achieving what they have with the Demon 170 and making it emissions compliant. Emissions compliance is different than CAFE compliance because if you are not emissions compliant, it’s not about paying a fine or buying credits. You simply cannot sell the vehicle. Period. So kudos to Micky Bly and the propulsion systems team for making that happen.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Thanks a lot, no need to write a book just for me/us (although you may want to consider that, your insights are super valuable, seriously). So okay, this makes sense, but only somewhat, because it also sounds like domestic manufacturers simply yielded the car market to Asia when helping the government produce EPA regulations that then heavily favored SUVs and pickup trucks.

They could also have pushed for import duties instead, for example, or any other measure that favors them vs imports. All I'm saying is it's strange how easily they surrendered, if that's how it went down.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Some Asian companies build more cars in the US than some domestics. Some domestics import more cars into the US than Asians.

Originally Posted by arpad_m

They sure do now, but isn't that a relatively new, shall I say, post-CAFE phenomenon?

Also, GM and others would import way less if they couldn't get away with slave, pardon, cheap labor in other countries. The Asians tend to favor the long game and now, a few decades in, their strategy has begun paying dividends. But, let's not turn this into a policital discussion, I think I understand your points

Japanese and Korean OEMs basically build cars here for two reasons (actually 3). First, it costs a lot if money to put a car on a boat and ship it here. Second, states line up to build you a factory for free so you don’t have to pay that money to put the car on a boat. And the third is they offer to pay to train the workers and give you 10 years or more of tax free operation. So if you are a HUGELY nationalistic country and someone offers you a deal like that that screws your own people out of jobs…………

[Alan47717]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Japanese and Korean OEMs basically build cars here for two reasons (actually 3). First, it costs a lot if money to put a car on a boat and ship it here. Second, states line up to build you a factory for free so you don’t have to pay that money to put the car on a boat. And the third is they offer to pay to train the workers and give you 10 years or more of tax free operation. So if you are a HUGELY nationalistic country and someone offers you a deal like that that screws your own people out of jobs…………

I don't know which was worse, the state governments whose hatred of unions and greed caused them to offer these sweetheart deals to foreign car companies or the national government for allowing them to do it. Sure, let's let one group of states bribe a bunch of foreign companies to wage economic war on a group of other states and one of the country's oldest industries (whose factories were crucial in winning two world wars by the way). What could be wrong with that?

[Malbjey]

Originally Posted by Alan47717

I don't know which was worse, the state governments whose hatred of unions and greed caused them to offer these sweetheart deals to foreign car companies or the national government for allowing them to do it. Sure, let's let one group of states bribe a bunch of foreign companies to wage economic war on a group of other states and one of the country's oldest industries (whose factories were crucial in winning two world wars by the way). What could be wrong with that?

Capitalism, baby!

[JerryABrownie]

Originally Posted by Alan47717

I don't know which was worse, the state governments whose hatred of unions and greed caused them to offer these sweetheart deals to foreign car companies or the national government for allowing them to do it. Sure, let's let one group of states bribe a bunch of foreign companies more info about essays for sale of any subject and one of the country's oldest industries (whose factories were crucial in winning two world wars by the way). What could be wrong with that?

Don't even get me started on the national government for allowing this mess to happen. It's like they're turning a blind eye to the science of economic war going on between states...
Anyway... we gotta support our local industries, man. Instead of buying foreign cars, let's try to buy American-made cars and support our own economy and writing books about our cars. I say every little bit counts, would you agree?))
I mean it's just about spreading the word and raising awareness. That's all.