Lets have a discussion about various tires for track/HPDE use

[X25]

Originally Posted by cvp33

I'll see you Saturday at VIR. Look me up when you get there!

I love my DTC 60/70's. You can stand the car on its head with these and they last and last. Doesn't hurt that they're $150 to $300 less than Carbotechs or Porterfields. As for tires/rims. I run a dedicated track setup - 18" wheels with Continental scrubs. In the rain I just run my street setup 255/45F and 295/35R Michelin Pilot Supersports.I justify this for 3 reasons - cost, performance, risk.

Cost - my track setup cost me right at $1,000. Much cheaper than running my Michelin Pilot Supersports @ $1,600 a set.

Performance - 18" wheels are light than stockers and the Continentals are like glue at the right temp and pressure.

Risk - If I "hurt" a stock wheel during the weekend I'm done and the car's getting towed home. If I hurt my track setup I switch to the streets and drive at 9/10ths. I also have a lower replacement cost as the rims are $180 apiece.

In my opinion, this sounds great, except the fact that you're using cheap wheels at the track. I'd do the other way around. If a wheel ever fails at the track, there's no telling at what speed, and they usually like disintegrating in corners of brand zones where there's ample load, and it might cost you more than $180

[cvp33]

My wheels are "inexpensive" and are VIA, JWL and ISO certified. I wouldn't run anything else. I've run over 1,000 miles at VIR with my setup and have never had an issue. I agree with cautioning the newbs on here though that price is not the only factor. You can definitely spend $400 on $hitty wheels as well. Be sure to look for 3rd party verified quality standards like I've listed above.

The guys that scare me at the track are usually running stock brake lines, stock fluid, stock pads and street tires. Especially if they like to brake late and apex early.


http://www.tubechop.com/watch/6500657

[X25]

Originally Posted by cvp33

My wheels are "inexpensive" and are VIA, JWL and ISO certified. I wouldn't run anything else. I've run over 1,000 miles at VIR with my setup and have never had an issue. I agree with cautioning the newbs on here though that price is not the only factor. You can definitely spend $400 on $hitty wheels as well. Be sure to look for 3rd party verified quality standards like I've listed above.

The guys that scare me at the track are usually running stock brake lines, stock fluid, stock pads and street tires. Especially if they like to brake late and apex early.


http://www.tubechop.com/watch/6500657

Perhaps you should let the community know about these cheap yet forged wheels; I'm sure many members are looking for wheels they can trust for a good price!

[cvp33]

Originally Posted by X25

Perhaps you should let the community know about these cheap yet forged wheels; I'm sure many members are looking for wheels they can trust for a good price!

Where does it say forged? BMW doesn't run forged wheels on all of its M cars and plenty are running track events without issue. Look for the certifications especially JWL. Only way you have to ensure your wheel was built properly. Buying "forged" wheels alone without doing your homework is a fools errand. Just ask my buddy with APEX wheels that took 7 ounces of weights to balance. APEX claimed that was "within their spec".

[X25]

Originally Posted by cvp33

Where does it say forged? BMW doesn't run forged wheels on all of its M cars and plenty are running track events without issue. Look for the certifications especially JWL. Only way you have to ensure your wheel was built properly. Buying "forged" wheels alone without doing your homework is a fools errand. Just ask my buddy with APEX wheels that took 7 ounces of weights to balance. APEX claimed that was "within their spec".

Funny, I thought you said forged. Anyway, if they're not forged, they will be considerably heavier than a similar sized forged wheel with the same load rating. There's always a tradeoff : )

[cvp33]

Originally Posted by X25

Funny, I thought you said forged. Anyway, if they're not forged, they will be considerably heavier than a similar sized forged wheel with the same load rating. There's always a tradeoff : )

Not necessarily. Low pressure cast wheels (not gravity cast) are lighter and stronger than standard cast. Also remember that I'm going from 19" stockers to a 18" race setup. Stock wheels for my car are 25lb front and 26lb rear. My 18x9.5's are 22.5lbs. The TSW's are right at 19.9lbs. So even lighter. Definitely freeing up some unsprung weight.

[X25]

Originally Posted by cvp33

Not necessarily. Low pressure cast wheels (not gravity cast) are lighter and stronger than standard cast. Also remember that I'm going from 19" stockers to a 18" race setup. Stock wheels for my car are 25lb front and 26lb rear. My 18x9.5's are 24.1lbs. The TSW's are right at 19.9lbs. So even lighter. Definitely freeing up some unsprung weight.

Yes, which is why I said compared to similarly sized forged wheels. With pressure casting, etc., you're moving into forged territory. TSW is not even fully forged, but if it's 19.9 lbs in similar size, that's a huge improvement over 24.1 lbs. Long story short, I would not want to run cast wheels at the track, not only because they will be heavier, but they are also more likely to have imperfections. Considering the amount of investment in the car, track setup, etc , it just doesn't make sense to me. Of course, everyone is entitled to his own opinion.

[cvp33]

Originally Posted by X25

Yes, which is why I said compared to similarly sized forged wheels. With pressure casting, etc., you're moving into forged territory. Of course, everyone is entitled to his own opinion.

Agreed and agreed.

[KaBoom1701]

I do about 4 HPDE events a year. I'm happy with the stock rubber on the ZL1. You do have to let the tires warm up on the first lap of any session your running in. The tires do need to build up some heat before they start to grip.

I honestly think we need to discuss tire pressure. The G2 on the ZL1 run night a day depending on the tire pressure. I try to run 32-34psi at the track. Start around 28-30psi cold.

[Destructo09]

Originally Posted by X25

Aren't M/T drag tires? Why would you use them at the road course track? I'm sure the very soft sidewall is great hard launches, but it's also probably the worst thing in a corner. Also, wouldn't they overheat in no time? After all, they're designed to warm up right away. Good luck.

They came out with a UHP Summer tire a couple years back. The benefits are it has a really stiff sidewall so turn in is nice and crisp, the downside is traction at the limit falls off pretty quick and they ride really rough because of the sidewalls.

So far they've held up pretty well on track, but they certainly don't grip as well as most of the 200TW tires.

Pretty sure they also mold them with less tread on the inside edges which sucks for me because i'm running -2.1 camber in the front so my tires wear pretty even which means i'm going to run out of inside tread first likely.

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by X25

My 2 cents:

None of the tires mentioned in the first post are really for track duty, so I'm a bit confused why we're discussing them. In my experience, G:2 handles heat much better than PSS. I can see myself using G:2s at the track if my car is not good for an R-compound choice, but not PSS.

AD08R, G:2, RS-3, RE-11 are all decent street tires that also work at the track, and they don't try to kill you if it rains on your way to the track. I have RS-3s as my street tires since they were very cheap during the closeout of their V1, and they warm up faster than G:2s.

As far as I've heard in Miata forums, RE71 provides excellent traction, but it seems to be a cheater tire, and wears down very fast. Some even reported heat cycling in a short time, so it may not be the best choice. If you're racing and required to run a 200tw tire, then RE71 becomes the first choice tire. If not, it doesn't make sense to me. Looking at its data, it behaves more like a 60 threadwear tire

There's one hero tire which should be mentioned: Nitto NT01. It does not even require warm up (but gets a bit better when it does), is rated 100tw yet wears like iron, and even works when cold! Yes, my brother is very lazy, and he kept his race tires on his Miata whole winter. Seattle winter is mild, but it's still impressive. They handle wet track very well, too, but will try to kill you if you go through a puddle, so perhaps it's not the best idea for rain. They are also not too sensitive to the pressures; excellent for lazy people who don't have pyrometers and log books. What interests me most, still, is the consistency. This tire provides about the same performance, if not a bit better, throughout its life until it cords. As a result, each time you lose time at the track, you don't immediately start wondering if it's the tires that mess with the times. This feature alone if enough to get me sold on these.

Trofeo: Stay away. Very inconsistent. Hoosiers would be better fit if a glory lap is what we're after.

Trofeo R: I've recently tried them at Z/28 size, and they were great! I'm not yet done with my first set, but I have a feeling that this is one of the best choices below time attack tires, if only they were affordable.



R888: I'd stay away. Heat cycles out in a hurry. Very hard to set pressure right.

R6: Excellent. For the first day.

R7: Excellent. For two days.

BFG R1: One of the best handling tires, and it also lasts longer than Hoosiers, but don't expect a miracle.

Z214 mid/hard: even better life than R1, but also less traction. Lasts longer on light vehicles (suggesting high heat kills it).

I think this thread is derailed a bit from the start since we're discussing PSS for HPDE (except wet; it really works well when wet!); we might want to create a new one with focus on track focused tires.

This is an excellent post, one which agrees with my experience.

My favorite of the group is the Hoosier R7 by a wide margin, although I have heard great things about the Trofeo R and haven't had a chance to try it. Regarding the BFG R1 S, our racing class performed extensive testing of it against the Hoosier R7. It is about 1/2 second slower than the R7, but lasts a little longer. The R7 is more communacive which gives more confidence at the limit, a surprisingly important characteristic. Price is lower on the R1 S.

Nitto NT01 is best bang for the buck, an excellent track tire hot or cold as X25 states. Lasts longer than the Hoosiers or R1S too. More streetable as well, but not really a street tire. None the three I discussed are for the street. Fine to drive to and from the track on, although the Hoosier and R1S are more prone to puncture and useless in the wet.

[BaylorCamaro]

Originally Posted by X25

My 2 cents:

None of the tires mentioned in the first post are really for track duty, so I'm a bit confused why we're discussing them.

I suppose I should have been a little more clear in the point I was trying to convey with this thread. If you're running a 100% hardcore track tire, the options are pretty small and easier to differentiate.

However as Norm stated, there is a very large group of people that do a few HPDE events (1-4 per year) that want a tire that is good for road course but may not necessarily be road course only. Even though I have a dedicated set of wheels and tires for the track I do not run slicks or super crazy tires. Partially because some of the events I do have to have a certain tread wear and partially because I don't have a dry sump and I don't want to risk oil starvation during a long turn.

Originally Posted by KaBoom1701

I honestly think we need to discuss tire pressure. The G2 on the ZL1 run night a day depending on the tire pressure. I try to run 32-34psi at the track. Start around 28-30psi cold.

From the tires I've used I am usually around 33-34 HOT which I think a lot of people agree is a good general range to shoot for. However after Camaro Fest and speaking to Pete during the autocross he suggested I drop my pressure down to around 29-30 hot. My times did in fact get better. Obviously autocross and HPDE events are different but autocross does put a lot of street on side wall.

[X25]

Originally Posted by BaylorCamaro

I suppose I should have been a little more clear in the point I was trying to convey with this thread. If you're running a 100% hardcore track tire, the options are pretty small and easier to differentiate.

However as Norm stated, there is a very large group of people that do a few HPDE events (1-4 per year) that want a tire that is good for road course but may not necessarily be road course only. Even though I have a dedicated set of wheels and tires for the track I do not run slicks or super crazy tires. Partially because some of the events I do have to have a certain tread wear and partially because I don't have a dry sump and I don't want to risk oil starvation during a long turn.



From the tires I've used I am usually around 33-34 HOT which I think a lot of people agree is a good general range to shoot for. However after Camaro Fest and speaking to Pete during the autocross he suggested I drop my pressure down to around 29-30 hot. My times did in fact get better. Obviously autocross and HPDE events are different but autocross does put a lot of street on side wall.

29-30 HOT is also what Pirelli recommends for the Trofeo Rs, but it's hard to get to, since GM recommends that we keep it above 26 PSI for safety (since this is a heavy car after all). I started with 28 PSI cold with Trofeo Rs as was recommended, but realized they still had too much pressure. I later dropped to 26 PSI cold by bleeding an additional 2 PSI, which seemed to improve the traction. Starting from 26 PSI, I see about 34 PSI hot with Trofeo Rs.

[White_SS/RS]

I agree that you can get slightly better lap times out of the tire with 29-30 but like X25 states you have a uncomfortably low starting pressure. I'd also add that the lower pressure works the shoulders more leaving an odd wear pattern and less tire life... At least with the G2 it does. 34-35 is what I've been running which seems to offer decent wear pattern with respectable lap times. I'm not after hero laps, I'd rather be a half second slower but within a few tenths lap after lap. I'm usually on track doing a little door to door with a few of the guys I really trust anyway... So the 34-35 offers me that consistency to put the car where I need it since door to door rarely offers you the best line.