Alignment Help Thread

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by 1LEguy

Thank you for the quick reply and help. Unfortunately, my phone battery died, so I was unable to pass this along. The car is all stock, except I do have new Factory Reproductions 20x10 23mm offset all-around on 285/35's for my street set. At the end when I went out he couldn't get camber in factory spec with the toe within factory spec and vice versa. I remember seeing - 1.5 camber with the toe in spec (I forget the value but it showed green). And I remember seeing -.6 camber (green in spec), but then the toe was like 2 degrees... They felt something was wrong and are going to flat bed the car to the dealer tomorrow morning. They said the rear passenger went to the settings (.12 toe in and 0 camber) easily and the both sides of front (0 toe and -1 camber) too. I'll pass the info along to them though. Thanks again.

And a road trip sounds like a great idea!

I didn't see you're in NC. Hell yes there should be a road trip. We'll start building your JP/Z

http://www.jpssonline.com/#/jpz/

[1LEguy]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

I didn't see you're in NC. Hell yes there should be a road trip. We'll start building your JP/Z

http://www.jpssonline.com/#/jpz/

Looking at your builds, that would be awesome if only I had that kind of money and it wasn't a DD. But some suspension bits and a proper alignment before my trip to VIR (TBD) would be good. About a 4 hour drive for me.

So my car is back now from from the dealer. The alignment place said it was hitting the striker plate and needed adjusted... The dealer just said it was way out of whack. The dealer didn't hit the numbers, but at least I have my car back and I am thankful for that.

LF -1 camber, .1 toe, 5.5 caster
RF -1.1, .09, 5.9
Steer ahead is .01

LR -.7, .1
RR -.8, .12
Thrust angle -.01

not quite the values I requested:
Front Camber -1.00
Front Toe 0.00
Rear Camber 0.00
Rear Toe IN 0.12
Total Rear Toe IN 0.24

But it doesn't feel worse than it was after short trip along a few empty somewhat twisty back roads.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by 1LEguy

Looking at your builds, that would be awesome if only I had that kind of money and it wasn't a DD. But some suspension bits and a proper alignment before my trip to VIR (TBD) would be good. About a 4 hour drive for me.

So my car is back now from from the dealer. The alignment place said it was hitting the striker plate and needed adjusted... The dealer just said it was way out of whack. The dealer didn't hit the numbers, but at least I have my car back and I am thankful for that.

LF -1 camber, .1 toe, 5.5 caster
RF -1.1, .09, 5.9
Steer ahead is .01

LR -.7, .1
RR -.8, .12
Thrust angle -.01

not quite the values I requested:
Front Camber -1.00
Front Toe 0.00
Rear Camber 0.00
Rear Toe IN 0.12
Total Rear Toe IN 0.24

But it doesn't feel worse than it was after short trip along a few empty somewhat twisty back roads.

1. How far are you from Charlotte?
2. Is your suspension bone stock?

[1LEguy]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

1. How far are you from Charlotte?
2. Is your suspension bone stock?

1) Almost as far! about 3.5 hours. I'm near Wilmington.
2) Yes, bone stock

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by 1LEguy

1) Almost as far! about 3.5 hours. I'm near Wilmington.
2) Yes, bone stock

Th easy money is in radius bushing inserts and a larger diameter rear bar. The good news is these are very straight forward DIY projects.

[1LEguy]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Th easy money is in radius bushing inserts and a larger diameter rear bar. The good news is these are very straight forward DIY projects.

Both are on my list. After my experience I figure I may need the rear camber bolts.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by 1LEguy

Both are on my list. After my experience I figure I may need the rear camber bolts.

We'll be here when you are ready!

[xc_SS/RS]

Pete thanks for the alignment specs, car feels way better than it did before. Turn in feels so much better and more responsive. Though the only issue I had was the small vibration I was getting at 75-80 mph. Turns out my rear tires can't balance and the shop who installed them and did the initial balancing didn't bother telling me that! Getting free tires out of it though so I'm certainly happy lol

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by xc_SS/RS

Pete thanks for the alignment specs, car feels way better than it did before. Turn in feels so much better and more responsive. Though the only issue I had was the small vibration I was getting at 75-80 mph. Turns out my rear tires can't balance and the shop who installed them and did the initial balancing didn't bother telling me that! Getting free tires out of it though so I'm certainly happy lol

Nothing but WINNING here!

So where is Charlie Sheen?

[maxxmoto]

Again, this forum, and the amazing discussions that are brought forth as in this alignment thread are such a wealth of information! I'm getting quite the education on my Gen5 here!

If you'll please pardon my admitted ignorance, I am way more experienced with equal/unequal length control arm with coil spring or coilover shock, and multi-link coilover front suspension configurations (mostly off-road) than I am street/track strut configurations.

For JusticePete,

I was looking for an answer to a question I have about initial setup on a Gen5 Camaro with lowering springs or a full coilover strut replacement. For the front camber settings, on a vehicle without an adjustable top strut plate, you would use the adjustable eccentric bolt(s) in the spindle/strut attachment to achieve the desired camber numbers, correct?

So on a car equipped with adjustable strut top plates, do you set the strut inclination angle first to achieve a zero scrub radius, then set the camber angle, or do you play with both after the initial setting to get the final angles you want, or am I out to lunch with that? Does the amount of scrub radius adjustment (with a top plate) available on our cars make much difference, or am I too concerned about this aspect of the overall alignment?

Again, please forgive my ignorance, I'm really trying to wrap my head around the full suspension configuration, and how everything interacts. These platforms are capable of some really good handling without spending a plie of money (relatively speaking) or drastic modifications. My goal is to know all I can about the car, then plan the suspension mods so that all bets are covered and there is the best interaction of all components is achieved in the end.

Plan twenty times, cut and execute ONCE, I say!

Thanks in advance for any insight!

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by maxxmoto

Again, this forum, and the amazing discussions that are brought forth as in this alignment thread are such a wealth of information! I'm getting quite the education on my Gen5 here!

If you'll please pardon my admitted ignorance, I am way more experienced with equal/unequal length control arm with coil spring or coilover shock, and multi-link coilover front suspension configurations (mostly off-road) than I am street/track strut configurations.

For JusticePete,

I was looking for an answer to a question I have about initial setup on a Gen5 Camaro with lowering springs or a full coilover strut replacement. For the front camber settings, on a vehicle without an adjustable top strut plate, you would use the adjustable eccentric bolt(s) in the spindle/strut attachment to achieve the desired camber numbers, correct?

So on a car equipped with adjustable strut top plates, do you set the strut inclination angle first to achieve a zero scrub radius, then set the camber angle, or do you play with both after the initial setting to get the final angles you want, or am I out to lunch with that? Does the amount of scrub radius adjustment (with a top plate) available on our cars make much difference, or am I too concerned about this aspect of the overall alignment?

Again, please forgive my ignorance, I'm really trying to wrap my head around the full suspension configuration, and how everything interacts. These platforms are capable of some really good handling without spending a plie of money (relatively speaking) or drastic modifications. My goal is to know all I can about the car, then plan the suspension mods so that all bets are covered and there is the best interaction of all components is achieved in the end.

Plan twenty times, cut and execute ONCE, I say!

Thanks in advance for any insight!

I am at Circuit of the Americas with a client in his new JP/Z. I am hot, tired and ready for bed but did not want to let the weekend go by without a reply. Please excuse the cut and past, but I think this will answer a few of your questions until I am at my desk on Tuesday night ot Wednesday.

The Book of 5th Gen Camaro is getting an update.

http://www.jpssonline.com/the-book-f...-2010-camaro-2

5th Gen Camaro Alignment, Bushing Timing and Torque Specifications

DO NOT USE OFFSET CAMBER BOLTS ON THE 2010 - 2015 5TH GEN CAMARO. The OE clevis bolts are much stronger and the offset bolts are NOT needed with an excellent system installed at the factory.



This is the correct way to adjust front camber on the 5th Gen. One the alignment machine with the clevis bolts loose turning the camber screw tighter (Righty Tighty, Lefty Loosey) will push the knuckle away from the strut. Loosening the camber screw allows the knuckle to fall in toward the strut. It is a 10mm 1.5 pitch thread.





It isn't pretty, but it was laying around the shop so we used it. A bolt this large is ONLY for use on the alignment rack and should be removed before driving.



This is a JPSS style Camber Screw. We recommend using LocTite blue to prevent it from backing out. Note that in this picture you can see the upper hole in the factory strut is elongated for camber adjustment.

On the alignment rack, any 10mm 1.5 pitch bolt will do. The correct way is to use a JPSS style Camber Screw with blue LocTite. Your alignment shop may have a T.O.M.C.A.T. Air-Assisted Multiple Camber Adjustment Tool air bag.



It fits between the wheel and the strut and works in the same way as the camber screw. Inflate (Righty Tighty) the bag to push the knuckle away from the strut or deflate (lefty Loosy) the bag to allow the knuckle to fall into the strut. If they don't, they have a guy that can push or pull on the wheel while they tighten it. Never, ever use offset camber bolts on a Camaro. EVER!

JPSS foundation as a company is more than just a range of bits, we are suspension specialists committed to delivering a JPSS Driving Experience. A lowered vehicle should have a full range of alignment adjustments. The Camaro delivers from Chevrolet with a fixed Castor position. The radius arm bolts into round holes with no available adjustment. Front Camber is adjustable from the factory. There is a threaded hole for front Camber Adjustment Bolt / Screw, but no bolt is installed and no part number is listed by Chevrolet. The rear OEM eccentric adjusters for Toe and Camber provide approximately one degree adjustment range. For an alignment specialist, this is unacceptable. You want to get your Camaro perfectly setup. This is what JPSS is all about. Our solution is a set of Black Magic JPSS Alignment Bolts. While GM made the hole round for the front Castor Adjustment or lack thereof, they did weld in brackets for an eccentric to work against. Your local JPSS Dealer can create a slot to provide Caster adjustment with JPSS Camaro Alignment Bolts. The kit provides the front Camber screws that GM didn't.

For the 5th Camaro, GM decided to produce the front sub-frame with only a round hole, but they kept the 'fences' for caster adjustment with eccentric bolts just like the Pontiac G8 and Holden Commodore. The slots to allow adjustment were lost in translation. For a performance driver, a vehicle without full alignment adjustment capability feels like driving with one hand tied behind your back. JPSS made the decision to make the Camaro front suspension fully adjustable.

Stock Radius Bush Mounting area with a round hole and adjustment 'fences'.




In Step #1 the technician may choose to drill two holes, one on either side of the factory hole before grinding a slot shape. Other techs will just grind the slot.



The eccentric that will be used does not reach all the way to the bracket sides so a bit of excess metal is not an issue. The technician can check the clearance with a JPSS Castor Eccentric Bolt as they grind to make sure the fit is JPSS dead nuts on.



We use black chromate plating on our Camber Bolts. We used a gold tone bolt in this image to make it easier to see.

When assembled the plated eccentric allows the alignment technician to increase or decrease Castor. A well aligned Camaro with good tires will not require ANY BIAS in the alignment. Should your Camaro be tweaked and develop a pull the same JPSS Caster Eccentric Bolts can be used to create a bias to correct the pull. We strongly recommend that before you alter your alignment due to a pull that you have a qualified technician, because the machine is only as good as the tech, check your tires on a road force balance machine to make certain the pull is not induced by a tire. When the tires have been confirmed good, we can make adjustments on the alignment rack.

For those that track the 5th Gen Camaro we have created Black Magic Caster Locks. Using a Caster Lock there is no possibility drift under the most demanding driving conditions. Installation of the Caster Locks is very similar. The slot is ground forward toward the radiator.



There are four Caster Lock plates that are installed on both sides of each radius arm bushing. We used a raw bare aluminum plate for this illustration.



Increasing caster improves straight line stability and the return of the wheels to the on center position. Adding caster to the 5th Gen is highly desirable.

Alignments are JPSS core business. We offer the JPSS Black Magic Caster, Rear Camber and Front Camber Screws. When installing the JPSS Front Camber Screw it is essential that you use LocTite Blue. The Camber screw will never bear a load while driving, but we want to make certain they never vibrate out.



JPSS Rear Eccentrics are virtually bullet proof with 1.8 degrees or double the factory adjustment. With the Camaro alignment Kit installed your Camaro can be setup for the drag strip, road course, auto cross or every day flawless driving. Even better, JPSS alignment eccentric bolts carry a unique warranty feature. Should a JPSS eccentric ever fail while you own the vehicle we will replace it. You get a superior alignment, improved driving experience and a life time warranty with JPSS Camaro Alignment Bolts.

To get the aggressive alignments we prefer JPSS Black Magic Camber and Caster Bolts and Camber Screws are essential. They double the adjustment range . We achieve this result my moving the eccentric to the outer edge of the bolt. The eccentrics are cut on a water jet, assembled in a jig and welded. This is a time consuming process. To finish the bolts we have coated in black chromate.




Taking the performance of your 5th Gen and alignment to the next level requires the use of JPSS Knockout Camber Plates. With the stock front struts or coilovers you can achieve -2.2 Degrees of front camber. Relieving the upper slot in the strut to allows it to fall in a bit more will get you to -2.5. When running high negative camber it is Mission Critical to check spacing between the inner tire sidewall and the strut or coilover. We use a standard #2 lead pencil as a gauge. If the pencil passes between the tire and the strut or coilover you are good to go. With JPSS Knockout Plates we suggest you run them full in, maxed out for negative camber. Positioning the strut top well in toward the engine improves SAI. Your 5th Gen will drive better. Final adjust the negative camber at the knuckle using the camber adjustment screw.

JPSS are a Knock Out by design, construction and function. The bearing plates are made of stainless steel. The hardware is stainless steel. Our bearings are the finest made in America available. Of course none of this matters if they are not the most functional in the industry. It starts with a hard mount system. Some 5th Gen Camaro owners will cringe at the thought of drilling six mounting holes in their strut towers, but most will agree it makes sense when they understand why. We don't want it to move. Period. Anything that clamps in place can move on impact with a pothole or gator-back. Bolted in place, the only way to move a JPSS camber plate is to move the entire strut tower.

JPSS Knock Out Camber Plates deliver 2 full degrees of adjustment. Not 1 degree. Not 1 degree split between caster and camber. 2 full degrees. If you want to add caster, and we highly recommend you do, use our Caster Locks or of Caster Bolts. Camber plates on a 5th Gen Camaro are reserved for Camber and Steering Angle Inclination (SAI).

Steering axis inclination acts, with caster, to provide a self-centering of the front wheels. When the wheels are in the straight-ahead position, the ends of the stub axles are almost horizontal. When the wheels turn to either side, the effect of steering axis inclination is to make the ends of the stub axle tend to move downward, but this is prevented by the wheel. The stub axle carrier then must move up, which raises the front of the vehicle. When the steering wheel is released, the mass of the vehicle forces the stub carrier back down, which pushes the wheels back to a central position.



The SAI angle is created and measured in degrees. It runs from the lower ball joint through the upper ball joint, or on most front wheel vehicles, through the center of the strut mount. The illustration uses ball joints to represent the angle. This measurement of degrees includes the measurement from lower ball joint to the upper ball joint or the upper strut mount and true vertical (the tire actually sitting straight up and down). The SAI angle doesn't include the camber angle. This is because Steering Axis Inclination is a non-adjustable angle.

We recommend using the JPSS Knockout Camber Plates to increase SAI and adjust the majority of camber at the knuckle. Combine this with JPSS Caster Locks to achieve optimal front end geometry and handling.





Bushing Timing

Step 1. Lift the car on a two post lift and raise it.

Step 2. Loosen the following bolts/nuts:
Front:
---Inner Control Arm Bushing
---Inner Radius Rod
Rear:
---Trailing Arm Bushings (both ends)
---Toe Rod Bushings (both ends)
---Lower Control Arm Bushings (Inner)
---Upper Control Arm Bushings (Rearward)
---Lower Strut Bushings

Step 3.
Lower the car and drive it around the parking lot SLOWLY and on to the alignment lift.

Step 4.
With the weight of the car on the wheels tighten all of the nuts/bolts to spec.

Step 5.
Align the car at the new ride height.

Alignment

On the alignment rack the technician must be aware that the rear lower control arm camber adjustment works against the toe link toe adjustment. The toe eccentrics should be set to a neutral position, the eccentric not touching the 'fences' when thee initial camber adjustment is made. Then the technician will work the two for the optimal split of camber and toe values.







Front and Rear Bolt Torque Values





NOTE: Torque specifications that read XX torque value and XX degrees are typically Torque to Yield (TTY) and require replacement of the bolt, nut or both. If replacement parts are not available from GM, the minimum acceptable torque will be those values stated along with a liberal application of a thread locker i.e. LocTite

[maxxmoto]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

I am at Circuit of the Americas with a client in his new JP/Z. I am hot, tired and ready for bed but did not want to let the weekend go by without a reply. Please excuse the cut and past, but I think this will answer a few of your questions until I am at my desk on Tuesday night ot Wednesday.

Wow, Pete! I appreciate the time it took to reply to my question!

The depth and detail of your response is exactly why I asked you the question to begin with, and why I have gravitated to your JPSS site for answers, and parts.

I'm putting together a punch list to get the suspension components for my car. I'm sure I'll have more questions before all is said & done.

I have a great job that provides me the means to afford such a nice car, and to be able to modify it to be even better. The only drawback is, I'm away from home a lot working! Not being there to go over the car and make final decisions, makes it hard to get things done in a timely manner. Throw in the lovely Alaska Winters, and you can see that projects can take longer than desired to complete. Hey, we endeavor to persevere, right?!

Thanks again for your reply, and your contributions to this forum!

Carl

[Norm Peterson]

max - I don't think you'd want to hit zero scrub radius exactly even if you could guarantee it on a force basis (think in terms of force distribution across the contact patches, and consider what would happen if you actually did hit zero SR with cambers set to -1°, and later reset your cambers to -2°). A small amount of SR will tend to put everything from the contact patches up through the steering linkage into a state of mild preload due to rolling drag force (a good thing, in small doses).

Should you be trying to crowd wheel & tire combinations out near what's the maximum amount possible up front, it is possible to buy a little strut clearance by not setting camber as far negative as the maximum adjustment might permit, and making it up at the strut tops with camber plate adjustment. Kind of an alternative to using a thin spacer, and a much better approach than that until you fit longer and stronger studs to the hubs.



Pete - that -0.080° FE4 OE front camber . . . shouldn't that be more like 0.8°, maybe 0.85°?


Norm

[maxxmoto]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

max - I don't think you'd want to hit zero scrub radius exactly even if you could guarantee it on a force basis (think in terms of force distribution across the contact patches, and consider what would happen if you actually did hit zero SR with cambers set to -1°, and later reset your cambers to -2°). A small amount of SR will tend to put everything from the contact patches up through the steering linkage into a state of mild preload due to rolling drag force (a good thing, in small doses).

Should you be trying to crowd wheel & tire combinations out near what's the maximum amount possible up front, it is possible to buy a little strut clearance by not setting camber as far negative as the maximum adjustment might permit, and making it up at the strut tops with camber plate adjustment. Kind of an alternative to using a thin spacer, and a much better approach than that until you fit longer and stronger studs to the hubs.

Hey Norm, Thanks for the input. I'm still learning this setup, and wanted to understand how the scrub radius fit into the equation. With my limited knowledge as to its importance overall, I didn't know how much emphasis I should put on that particular aspect of the alignment. Your explanation makes perfect sense. I'm probably not going any wider than a 295 in the front, though I know that 305s will fit with the proper offset wheels.

After reading numerous threads on here, and contrasting what folks have said about their setups, I'm really leaning toward the Z/28 Light setup with JPSS swaybars, and some top plates. I am impressed with what Pete has to offer from his shop. I see a wealth of empirical testing and information, backed up by simple, sound hardware. He's not trying to reinvent the wheel, just make it roll at its optimum capability. I see that in a large aftermarket, where everyone is selling a different widget that is supposed to make things stiffer and handle better, someone in the business with a high-end shop that is in that business to make money, tells you directly that you don't need all that extra "stuff" to make it the best, then that says a whole lot to me.

I like the fact that with just a little tweaking, you can take the GM 1LE and Z/28 parts and put together a system that works as well (or better) than a full aftermarket coilover swap. There aren't many of us that can go out and drive one of these Gen5s at or close to its limit, then come in and know which compression or rebound settings need adjusting to optimize the ride to that point of absolute peak performance. I consider myself a very competent driver, with some professional training, and a whole lot of outlaw road race experience, and I'm not one of those who can do that. (I can sure wear out tires though!)

Most of us just want our Camaros to look bad-ass, run well, and handle well so we can have fun with them, and maybe run them at a track day or autocross once in a while. I bought my car on the 16th of June, and got to drive it for three days before I had to leave for a work assignment and I'm still not back home yet. I would be happy just to drive mine bone stock, as-is!

Anyway, I don't want to wander too far off-topic, thanks for the input, I appreciate it!

Maxx