Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Phastek Performance
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > V8 and V6 Transmissions / Driveline (6L80 / 6L50 / TR6060 / AY6)


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-23-2011, 04:11 PM   #1
Eric Baker

 
Drives: Black/Black 2SS/RS 6M
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Boston MA
Posts: 974
Question on my blown Richmond's for the experts

Well a couple weeks ago I blew up my Richmond 4.33's on my first launch of the day. They had about 4k miles and 5 passes on them. I tore the rear end out and broke it down to get ready to rebuild. Upon opening the case, I found all the teeth stripped off both gears, no surprise there. What I was surpised about was when I pulled the pinion out. I found that the bearing was not seated fully and the shims just loosely on the shaft. See pics.





My question is, could this have somehow happened from the gears going, or do you think it was an installation error possibly resulting in or contributing to the diff failure? It seems to me that this could not happen with the pinion gear installed and being held together under preload, and it may not have been fully installed at the time of assembly. It was done professionally by the way, by a reputable shop.
Eric Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2011, 04:31 PM   #2
Squintz Palladoris
 
Squintz Palladoris's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 IOM 1SS M6
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 559
I think you got all the good outta that gearset!

With only seeing pics of the pinion gear its hard to determine for sure. Looks to me like the pinion nut loosened up. Normally when that happens you would hear a large increase in gear wine and some bearing noise. The gear cases in these cars are aluminum and nor really designed to handle alot of power or shock. It is very possible that due to the case flexing it allowed the pinion to climb a bit to high on the ring gear causing the damage you see. If the crush sleeve was compressed as a result of the carnage then the rear pinion bearing definately could have been pushed away from the gear head. Probably a combination of the above.

I would not blame this on the gears. Although they have a bad name around here, Richmond makes a very strong set of ring and pinion gears.
Squintz Palladoris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2011, 04:33 PM   #3
jsharp
NOW CAMMED & SUPERCHARGED
 
jsharp's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS Black w/ IOM
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ar
Posts: 2,339
Richmond does not rate camaro gears for drag racing is what i have read. They may have some out now but i willing to bet these were not made for drag
__________________
Livernois Motorsports: Maggie 2300 7psi, Livernois 2C cam/L99 to LS3 Conversion, Ported TB, Rotofab w/adm race scoop, adm trans cooler,Kooks headers no cats, Kooks 3" exhaust. METCO breather. Precision 2400 Vigilante TC. Eibach Lowering Springs & Swaybars. BMR Trailing arms, BMR Rear Cradle Bushings, BMR Toe Rods, BMR Differential bushings. Vossen CV3 20's w/ 305 Mickey Thompson @25psi. Zl1 front bumper. OE Zl1 Hood and matte black insert. 556RWHP/500RWTQ L99
jsharp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2011, 04:42 PM   #4
Squintz Palladoris
 
Squintz Palladoris's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 IOM 1SS M6
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsharp View Post
Richmond does not rate camaro gears for drag racing is what i have read. They may have some out now but i willing to bet these were not made for drag
Sharp, these are performance "Street Gears". That doesnt mean you can't race with them. I have the same type of gear in my 9". The difference is the size of the ring and pinion and the strength of the gear case. If you have a manual trans and you drag race, if you plan to launch the car hard and shift hard, this will be the outcome sooner or later with the stock gear case. No matter what gear is in there. Even if richmond made a "Pro Gear" for the camaro gear case this would happen sooner or later. Only difference being you would not be able to drive it on the street as the Pro Gears are not designed to hold up to the heat they will be subjected to on the street from continuous use.
Squintz Palladoris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2011, 06:14 PM   #5
blazzin1


 
blazzin1's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 2SS (A8)
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Plant City, FL
Posts: 4,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squintz Palladoris View Post
Sharp, these are performance "Street Gears". That doesnt mean you can't race with them. I have the same type of gear in my 9". The difference is the size of the ring and pinion and the strength of the gear case. If you have a manual trans and you drag race, if you plan to launch the car hard and shift hard, this will be the outcome sooner or later with the stock gear case. No matter what gear is in there. Even if richmond made a "Pro Gear" for the camaro gear case this would happen sooner or later. Only difference being you would not be able to drive it on the street as the Pro Gears are not designed to hold up to the heat they will be subjected to on the street from continuous use.
Very good explanation Brad!!! It's not so much the Richmond Gears themselves that are the problem, it's the flimsy, flexible gear case. About the only thing to help this are Jannetty's Billet Main Caps, and maybe the LPW Diff Cover. But given enough power and torque this can happen to any OEM differential.
blazzin1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2011, 06:53 PM   #6
Eric Baker

 
Drives: Black/Black 2SS/RS 6M
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Boston MA
Posts: 974
Already had Jannetty's caps intalled. And I have an LPW cover ordered that's going on when I install the Lingenfelter 3.91's I have also ordered.
Eric Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2011, 07:11 PM   #7
Squintz Palladoris
 
Squintz Palladoris's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 IOM 1SS M6
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Baker View Post
Already had Jannetty's caps intalled. And I have an LPW cover ordered that's going on when I install the Lingenfelter 3.91's I have also ordered.
How much power are you making Eric? And what tire and how are you launching the car? What clutch are you using?

Brad
Squintz Palladoris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2011, 07:25 PM   #8
HufferSS
I Wanna Go Faster!!
 
HufferSS's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 2SS Synergy Green M6
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: SC
Posts: 3,323
An M6 is going to destroy that rear differential with either power or traction......I'd save the money on the caps and gears and do a 9"
HufferSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2011, 08:37 PM   #9
blue-bayou
 
blue-bayou's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 IBM SS/RS/Stick
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Holler
Posts: 217
To focus on the actual question rather than berating Richmond, the pinion bearing should be an interference fit with the pinion which means it's very difficult to separate. Once I used a set of used gears that had somehow lost that fit. I could slide the bearing on and off with my hand. My machinist told me to peen it and use red loctite. The eway the pinion sat, the pressed fit was more to keep from boogering up the pinion. Worked good for what I was doing.
But you need to ask youself a few questons.
Did the gears whine after initial install?
What could cause the bearing to move off its seat on a hard launch?

It would be very difficult to not hear a problem with the gears if installed with the wrong pinion depth, albeit not impossible.
Looking at the pinion, a clockwise rotation would push the ring gear towards the rear of the car and the pinion towards the front and causing the bearing to load against the race thereby pressing the bearing towards a more seated position. Counterclockwise and a loose pinion nut could theoretically separate the bearing but the inner portion of the bearing would have had to be braced against something in the rear, but I would expect to see markings that such a thing occurred.

Do you see any markings to suggest this?
Is the bearing race destroyed, moved, not quite right?

To me looks like someone didn't press the bearing completely on and the crush sleeve wasn't properly set.
__________________
blue-bayou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2011, 08:58 PM   #10
Squintz Palladoris
 
Squintz Palladoris's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 IOM 1SS M6
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue-bayou View Post
To focus on the actual question rather than berating Richmond, the pinion bearing should be an interference fit with the pinion which means it's very difficult to separate. Once I used a set of used gears that had somehow lost that fit. I could slide the bearing on and off with my hand. My machinist told me to peen it and use red loctite. The eway the pinion sat, the pressed fit was more to keep from boogering up the pinion. Worked good for what I was doing.
But you need to ask youself a few questons.
Did the gears whine after initial install?
What could cause the bearing to move off its seat on a hard launch?

It would be very difficult to not hear a problem with the gears if installed with the wrong pinion depth, albeit not impossible.
Looking at the pinion, a clockwise rotation would push the ring gear towards the rear of the car and the pinion towards the front and causing the bearing to load against the race thereby pressing the bearing towards a more seated position. Counterclockwise and a loose pinion nut could theoretically separate the bearing but the inner portion of the bearing would have had to be braced against something in the rear, but I would expect to see markings that such a thing occurred.

Do you see any markings to suggest this?
Is the bearing race destroyed, moved, not quite right?

To me looks like someone didn't press the bearing completely on and the crush sleeve wasn't properly set.
I totally agree with what you are saying, I just find it hard to believe that anyone in their right mind would put it together like that. It would make an obnoxiously loud rear end too lol.
Squintz Palladoris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 12:13 PM   #11
Russell James


 
Russell James's Avatar
 
Drives: two 5ths and a 1st
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Mich
Posts: 4,259
My bet would be on the case flexing, pinion pulled out of whack by the torque and case flexing... then destruction. I highly doubt it was put together like that. Likely just all is now out of whack because of the violent failure.

The fix for that is a 9" or 12 bolt, if you're going to continue launching with that much force.

If it were me, I'd redo with new gears and not launch so hard for now... eventually put in a 12 bolt iron case when they become available.
Russell James is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 12:16 PM   #12
The Stig
knows 2 facts about ducks
 
The Stig's Avatar
 
Drives: ...and they're both wrong
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The HMS Invincible
Posts: 26,271
This is Richmond's official word on the subject. Taken from this thread: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...58#post2816058

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichmondGear View Post
2010 Camaro Failures:
I am not going to get into a debate on this or any other forum but I felt the need to correct some of the misinformation that is being spread here. So here are some facts.


Richmond Gear has been producing street gears for the 2010 Camaro since December of 2009. These gears are designed for street use and are not drag race gears. Dedicated drag race gears are made from a different type steel (much more expensive). They are heat treated differently and are not suitable for street use. Drag race gears are softer and the steel provides a softer core so that when launched the gear will flex rather than break. As with all things in physics, there is no free lunch. Designs suitable for the drag strip do live on the street.


In many gears we offer both street and "pro" gears. As an example, in a Ford 9" we offer both street and "pro" gears. The "pro" gears are designed for drag race use only. We do not offer a drag race gear for the 2010 Camaro. Most of the Camaros are daily drivers so it would not make sense to limit use to the strip only.
  • Made in USA:
    • All Richmond 2010 Camaro gears were made right here in Liberty, SC USA.
  • Using American Steel:
    • All of the steel was purchased from US suppliers. None of the steel was purchased from China.
  • Box color:
    • Many years ago the street gears were shipped in a white box with blue graphics and pro gears were shipped in a blue box with white graphics. Today all Richmond double diamond gears are shipped in a black box with yellow, white and blue graphics. The Richmond EXCel brand of gears (our value gear) are shipped in a blue box with yellow "EXCel" graphic.
    • We only offer the Camaro gear in the Richmond Double Diamond brand street gear and it is sold in a black box. It has never been sold in any other box by us.
  • Oil Level:
    • Prior to seeing any failures we speculated that the oil might be too low. After reviewing the first failure it was clear there are no signs of heat in the gear. No service bulletin was ever issued. None of the returns have shown any sign of heat.
    • The oil level specified by GM is what should be used.
  • Failure mode
    • Failure mode is a catastrophic failure of the ring and pinion set.
    • To date most (not all but most) of the failures have been on the drag strip at time of failure. One or two have failed on the street but only after they were run on the drag strip.
    • More than 90% of the failures are in cars with manual transmissions.
    • All of the gears were reported as being silent when installed. Several were noted to have been noisy just prior to failure. This means something changed. As noted below one of the failed units had shims that were destroyed due to an install error.
  • Gear Failures
    • Since inception only eleven (11) have been reported and returned to us as having failed. Of those eleven only one (1) had a metallurgical issue.
    • One pinion had improper heat treat which is clearly our fault. (This was not Jasonís gear)
    • One failed gear returned to us had the pinion stem polished undersize to the point the head bearing spun destroying the pinion shims. Once the shims were destroyed it lost preload and allowed the pinion to run out of position. This is not a gear failure but an installation error.
    • One failed gear set had carrier shims installed under the head bearing. These shims were so large they interfered with the ring gear. Gear problem? I thing not.
    • The other eight had no metallurgical issues. They were in specification for all parameters.
    • Specifications for material and heat treat are identical to the GM 8.5 inch 10 bolt. These have survived for many runs in similar applications.

This gear set is for all practical purposes a 8.5 inch rear in an aluminum housing. It cannot take unlimited horsepower. The gear set is not designed for drag racing. From a design standpoint this gear is very similar in design, size and tooth geometry to the Chrysler H215 used in the 2008/2009 Challenger and Charger. The main difference is the cast iron housing on the Chrysler vs. the aluminum housing on the Camaro. We have had no similar failures on the Chrysler sets.


While there is no definitive proof, we suspect the housing is flexing when the car is launched and this allows the gears to be run out of position. This in turn, puts excess loads on a small area of the gear teeth and they crack. The cracking may result in immediate failure, it may fail driving home from the track or it may fail sometime later.


The first Camaro diffs came with a steel strap across the carrier caps. We assume this was done for strength. They have since stopped adding the strap. Jannetty Racing is offering billet steel caps. This will add some rigidity to the housing. He has reported running over 700hp at the strip with no failures.


It has also been reported to us that the GM repair manual calls for a case spreader to be used when assembling the carrier into the housing. This would allow for the proper amount of shim to be more easily installed. It would also put some stress into the case that could counteract the stresses induced during loading of the gear set. How many installers even have a case spreader let alone used one? It is critical that the installer knows how to install these gears and it is clear that not all do.


At some point all gears will fail. No gear has unlimited life. This car/differential was never designed for the drag strip. Part of racing is finding the weak link. That is why top fuel drag racers now use 12 inch rear ends when just a few short years ago they were running 9.5 inch gears.


In conclusion, there is no design, steel or metallurgical problem with the Richmond Camaro gears. Richmond Gear stands behind our gears. I chose to warranty the first failures for two reasons, first I didnít want the people on the leading edge of technology to get burned just because they were first to try something and secondly because I wanted to make sure we were not missing something in the design. I am convinced we did not miss anything. The 4.10 design was chosen to be a quite street gear and it is performing well in many cars.


We have decided to offer a stronger design in the 4.11 ratio. The tooth geometry is stronger and we chose to use a premium material. These gears are still heat treated for the street and not the drag strip. These gears do cost more but they are stronger. All gears will fail as some point. If you put enough horsepower to them and can get the traction you can break anything.


If there is enough demand for a "drag only" gear we can make them. That would not be a problem but they will not live on the street.


Much of the information about these gears on this and other forums is just plain wrong. Even some forum members with the facts have misstated them. Again, I donít intend to debate this here or anywhere else but I did want to get the facts out there.


Thanks for using Richmond.
__________________
Click to view my build thread
The Stig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 08:00 PM   #13
Eric Baker

 
Drives: Black/Black 2SS/RS 6M
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Boston MA
Posts: 974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squintz Palladoris View Post
How much power are you making Eric? And what tire and how are you launching the car? What clutch are you using?

Brad
476/420 to the wheels, and was my first time using MT ET Street Radials. Launched at somewhere around 3k. Clutch is stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue-bayou View Post
Did the gears whine after initial install?
What could cause the bearing to move off its seat on a hard launch?


Is the bearing race destroyed, moved, not quite right?

To me looks like someone didn't press the bearing completely on and the crush sleeve wasn't properly set.
There was some whine at 40 and 80mph, but from what I've been hearing that's pretty normal with these gears. And I'm trying to figure out what, if anything, would cause a bearing to un-seat itself like that.

Bearing race is fine, just a lilttle scored from have bits of metal grinding against it.

And yes it's my thought that it possibly wasn't installed correctly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell James View Post
Likely just all is now out of whack because of the violent failure.

If it were me, I'd redo with new gears and not launch so hard for now... eventually put in a 12 bolt iron case when they become available.
It could be out of whack cause of the failure. I just don't see how that could happen. The only way this bearing has force on it is pushing it on the gear futher. The bearing would come out of the rae before it would be pulled off the gear, at least the way I see it.

Yes, if I have another gear failure, I will likely be putting a 12 bolt in. Just don't have the funds right now to do a full diff replacement.
Eric Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 09:50 PM   #14
blue-bayou
 
blue-bayou's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 IBM SS/RS/Stick
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Holler
Posts: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell James View Post
My bet would be on the case flexing, pinion pulled out of whack by the torque and case flexing... then destruction. I highly doubt it was put together like that. Likely just all is now out of whack because of the violent failure.
You know, that looks about like 1/8 inch gap between the pinion face and bearing. The more I think about it, it seems next to impossible for that kind of gap to make it all the way to delivery to the customer without someone saying "something's not right". Now I'm not saying the installation was perfect but I don't think it could have been that bad.

Let's say the gears broke first, i think it's plausible for the pinion to be pulled to the rear of the car if broken pieces caused the pinion to bind and latch onto the ring gear momentarily. However it is difficult for me to fathom what kind of situation would prevent the bearing from following suit. Case flex seems reasonable but man, that has to be a lot of flex. I mean the race would have to flex as well and flex enough to hold the bearing in place while turning.

As unreal as it seems, I think that may be the most reasonable explanation.
__________________
blue-bayou is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Finance experts help! Refinancing question! zogster 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 2 09-09-2011 05:47 PM
Yo experts, a question. messi 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 3 01-12-2011 05:45 PM
dyno question for you experts... billyspeed Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 6 06-28-2010 09:44 PM
Question for the hunters/gun experts here........... Zeus Off-topic Discussions 130 12-11-2009 12:42 PM
Question for the experts! How much does the stock exhaust system weigh?! turbo222 Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 3 12-11-2009 11:38 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.