[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by N Camarolina

Just got back from VIR myself recently. Considering you hit the armco, it worked out pretty well that you only wrinkled the fender. From that one pic you showed inside the VIR garage with some of the odd light reflections off the car, I thought you might have wrinkled the entire right side.

Because I'm trying to learn to improve my own driving, I hope you don't mind the following question: Do you think your spin was caused by having the car too far into the inside gators, or that you lifted off the throttle mid corner (I noticed you were on the throttle part way during turn in).

The spin started *before* the throttle lift, due to too much steering input (as Stephen said: he pinched the corner). Almost identical cause and effect as the post below btw, except he also had to deal with a slower car, which made the situation much more complex and clearly was the reason why he pinched the corner in the first place (easy to do in a "heat of a battle" especially in a fast car).

If one just stays on power and does nothing else, the spin will just continue and one will hit a wall even faster and harder. The only way to stay on power is if one manages to catch a spin in its *very early* phase by applying super fast opposite lock. And then be ready to correct again, as a car will often rebound, or even "reward" us with a tank slapper spinning in the opposite direction, which is much, much worse. That's why some drivers will apply steering corrections proactively, to momentarily straighten the fronts and help the overloaded wheels recover before they lose traction completely. Personal driving style plays a big role here.

Watch the fastest lap recorded at VIR (ref Fastest Laps sticky) and watch the driver's corrections in many corners, including that one. It is clear he has the car at absolute limit and it is virtually impossible to tell whether he applies his corrections because he feels a start of a slide, or does it proactively, anticipating one. Either way, he maintains control by applying very fast steering angle corrections.

If you watch Stephen's vid, he's obviously very experienced and fast and drives this corner very consistently, lap after lap. The only difference is, he applies about 50% more steering lock on that particular lap and hence makes the corner tighter than usual while applying the same amount of throttle. And this combo causes the rear to lose traction. NB Classic "traction circle" problem which demonstrates a relationship between steering lock and power level. Btw the same relationship exists on entries between steering lock and brake level regarding understeer. In both cases, it is about asking the tire to do 2 jobs: corner and accelerate, or corner and brake. If one of these are overdone, the tires will lose traction and start to slide (giving us over or understeer). How much and how fast will depend on how quickly the limits are exceeded and whether steering corrections are made to counter act it.

Practicing a fast figure 8 is a great exercise to experience it, if organizers let ya do it at a dedicated paddock area. Or an empty parking lot if legal. It is a great and safe way to learn relationship of throttle and brakes vs steering angles. It is also a great way to learn how to correct under and oversteer at speeds much lower than those at an average track - by applying steering corrections.

Bottom line: one can manage to catch a slide very early by a well timed steering correction, but if not, then "when in a spin, both feet in" applies as the best course of action.

Cheers!

[TrackClub]

One more comment from my high horse arm chair, bases on what Stephen said. Make no mistake, i still learn every time i go out. And i dont profess to know it all. And ive had my own share of "of shit" moments. But, since Stephen posted this incident we may as well learn from it as much as we can.
So what did Stephen say, which was pure wisdom?
He looked at the Bimmer.

Every time i get in my car i look at my "reminder list" consisting of just a few key items. I do it to refocus my mind. One of them is: "never look at a car in front of you".

Vision is one of the most important skills in all sports.
We've all heard "keep you eyes on the ball" etc.
As drivers we must focus on our own line of travel and nothing else. Everything else should be done via peripheral vision only. It sounds simple, but it isn't and requires much practice to accomplish. At least for slow learners like me

As much as feeling a car's balance is key, vision often plays even a more dominant role in spotting out of balance conditions. If one focuses their vision on another car (or object), they lose control of their own car: zero doubt about it. It could be momentary, but sometimes it is enough to get us in trouble.

Cheers!

[Stephen12ZL1]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Excellent summary Stephen: a Camaro terrier chasing a Bimmer bone, albeit a bit too hard Been there done it myself a few times, albeit managed to get lucky.

Btw if i may suggest: id check the RF rim for cracks and to ensure it isn't bent, as well as all control arms and such. Ya just never know...

Cheers!

Yes...those wheels on the car were BC Forged 18". Thanks for the heads up and that wheel only touched a tire barrier but I will double check it. Steering wheel is still perfectly straight... amazingly

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Stephen12ZL1

Yes...those wheels on the car were BC Forged 18". Thanks for the heads up and that wheel only touched a tire barrier but I will double check it. Steering wheel is still perfectly straight... amazingly

Fingers crossed for ya. Surprisingly, my mechanic discovered a bent RF rim on my car, while trying to balance new tires. Upon closer inspection there was trauma to the rim as well as the old tire. Likely i dropped it off a steep curb and pretty sure know where...
Another extra grand outta window)

[Stephen12ZL1]

I had a paintless dent removal guy work on it for about 3 hours and he definitely made it better but certainly far from perfect. The paint is unscathed so I'm leaving in it like this for now.

[Stephen12ZL1]

Post

[N Camarolina]

https://connect.intuit.com/portal/ap...w&locale=en_US

So true. I have done tons of laps of VIR virtually and the muscle memory indeed translates on the real track. However, it can apparently be overruled (subconsciously) by vision input. I was catching up to a car in front of me in around turn 3. Lead car takes wrong line. I'm looking at lead rather than where I want to be, and I start following his line before I even know I'm doing it (instructor says "follow your line, not his")!

Many thanks to all who support the "sharing knowledge spirit" on this website and for the OP in posting his on track experience for the benefit of others.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by N Camarolina

So true. I have done tons of laps of VIR virtually and the muscle memory indeed translates on the real track. However, it can apparently be overruled (subconsciously) by vision input. I was catching up to a car in front of me in around turn 3. Lead car takes wrong line. I'm looking at lead rather than where I want to be, and I start following his line before I even know I'm doing it (instructor says "follow your line, not his")!

Many thanks to all who support the "sharing knowledge spirit" on this website and for the OP in posting his on track experience for the benefit of others.

Agree fully on all points, including big kudos to Stephen. Vision is absolutely key and as any other skill needs to be TRAINED. I do quite a bit of iRacing in winter months and proper vision technique applies there equally as in RL. This is particularly important during races, with other cars around, but not only. As when my pace lacks, it is usually always due to less than ideal vision technique. Cheers!

Btw that link doesn't work...

[N Camarolina]

Yah. I haven't figured out yet how to properly copy and post the quote fragment like you just did with my previous post (gray box).

[Stephen12ZL1]

just press quote and leave what portion you want...here is a crunched car on track pic:

[Paulman]

Sorry this happened to you. But you're OK and well on your way to getting the car fixed.

VIR has plenty of tricky corners for sure - it's easy to accidentally early apex corners there. I was taught to use the light tower in front of the concession stand as a guide when entering 3, but it's not that easy when you're thinking about a pass before getting to 4. They added that little run-off strip pavement to the right of the rumble strips before 4, but I'm not sure it helps for a faster entry to 4.

Hope to see you out there again soon!

[Stephen12ZL1]

Fender fitted. Available painted to your code. Matches great. Still a bit of tweaking to do...

[Stephen12ZL1]

www.revemoto.com

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Stephen12ZL1

Fender fitted. Available painted to your code. Matches great. Still a bit of tweaking to do...

Looking good! Nice job!