Clutch vibration to clutch is broke

[Billy10mm]

Originally Posted by White_SS/RS

From what I'm gathering from all the clutch problems guys are having is its the clutch itself. With the weight and power of our cars the OEM clutch doesn't have enough holding power to not be slipping to some degree when used hard. This in turn overheats the assembly, boils the fluid (which is why the pedal goes to the floor) melts the release bearing support and then destroys the release bearing, which requires replacing the entire slave because it's one unit.
Changing the fluid helps-slightly, only because it keeps the boiling point up. The issue of heat is still there. In my case the release bearing and support went before I had the pedal going to the floor but I was changing the fluid regularly.

The only people saying that the clutch isn't powerful enough to handle the torque of our motors is a company that makes replacement clutches. And many of us aren't buying that excuse since being at the track doesn't impart any additional torque on the clutch over a good on-ramp romp. The most clutch-abusing form of auto-sport is drag racing, and the stock-powered SS and 1LE guys are having no issues with the OEM unit.

My stock 1LE clutch doesn't slip at any rpm in any gear. It's easy to tell, you'll see your revs increase without any actual improvement in speed. There was a "It's fixed!!" hooray in the big clutch thread after the after-market clutch was installed, but that only lasted a few weeks - it's happened again to that person.

It appears that our problem is water in the lines, and it is being suggested that people flush their clutch fluid before and after each track event (big PITA as you know since you replace regularly). Air is being introduced into our lines under hard use, getting very hot, and forming condensation as it cools.

Fix the air leak, fix the problem. Caps, hoses, fittings, clamps.

[White_SS/RS]

Originally Posted by Billy10mm

The only people saying that the clutch isn't powerful enough to handle the torque of our motors is a company that makes replacement clutches. And many of us aren't buying that excuse since being at the track doesn't impart any additional torque on the clutch over a good on-ramp romp. The most clutch-abusing form of auto-sport is drag racing, and the stock-powered SS and 1LE guys are having no issues with the OEM unit.

My stock 1LE clutch doesn't slip at any rpm in any gear. It's easy to tell, you'll see your revs increase without any actual improvement in speed. There was a "It's fixed!!" hooray in the big clutch thread after the after-market clutch was installed, but that only lasted a few weeks - it's happened again to that person.

It appears that our problem is water in the lines, and it is being suggested that people flush their clutch fluid before and after each track event (big PITA as you know since you replace regularly). Air is being introduced into our lines under hard use, getting very hot, and forming condensation as it cools.

Fix the air leak, fix the problem. Caps, hoses, fittings, clamps.

I can see your perspective on this but I disagree to some extent with the open air system because my brakes are not sharing the same fate as my clutch using the same hydraulic system. That doesn't mean I think the system couldn't benefit from your suggestion.

This is a heat issue at the core, plain and simple, The clutch system is getting so hot that it boils the fluid on the clutch end of the system before the brake end. So in therory the clutch is running hotter than the brakes. The crazy thing is, I changed the fluid the day before my pedal went to the floor, so it had zero moisture, possibly air but I doubt it since the clutch actuation felt the same as before.

So where is that heat from? This is why I think it is slippage and heat stacking over long periods seen on the road course. As far as slipping, Im not speaking that the clutch is continuously slipping but rather torque loading, such as down shifts, throttle spikes, heck even if it was minutely slipping it wouldn't always be felt or shown on a gauge but it would be putting massive amounts of heat in the system. I believe this is the direct link to the release bearing support failures and the subsequent destruction of slaves and release bearings.

Maybe upgrading the bearing support will fix bearing and slave failure but it won't stop fluid boil.

[X25]

Do you change fluid through a bleeder, or do you just replace fluid in the reservoir?

[White_SS/RS]

Originally Posted by X25

Do you change fluid through a bleeder, or do you just replace fluid in the reservoir?

Through the bleeder, stock one at that! PITA!!

[Camaro Dude]

Originally Posted by White_SS/RS

I can see your perspective on this but I disagree to some extent with the open air system because my brakes are not sharing the same fate as my clutch using the same hydraulic system. That doesn't mean I think the system couldn't benefit from your suggestion.

This is a heat issue at the core, plain and simple, The clutch system is getting so hot that it boils the fluid on the clutch end of the system before the brake end. So in therory the clutch is running hotter than the brakes. The crazy thing is, I changed the fluid the day before my pedal went to the floor, so it had zero moisture, possibly air but I doubt it since the clutch actuation felt the same as before.

So where is that heat from? This is why I think it is slippage and heat stacking over long periods seen on the road course. As far as slipping, Im not speaking that the clutch is continuously slipping but rather torque loading, such as down shifts, throttle spikes, heck even if it was minutely slipping it wouldn't always be felt or shown on a gauge but it would be putting massive amounts of heat in the system. I believe this is the direct link to the release bearing support failures and the subsequent destruction of slaves and release bearings.

Maybe upgrading the bearing support will fix bearing and slave failure but it won't stop fluid boil.

In regards to your theory and testing it, do you think that had our cars come with a rev-match feature, these failures would have been significantly reduced then?

[White_SS/RS]

Originally Posted by Camaro Dude

In regards to your theory and testing it, do you think that had our cars come with a rev-match feature, these failures would have been significantly reduced then?

I'm not claiming to be an expert about this, it's my theory based on all the experiences that people have had with their clutch failures. As far as rev-match, I guess it would help but not sure. I'm sure there are many areas of the system to improve upon. It will be interesting to see if GM has any improvements in the next generation.

I don't think that anyone's approach to fixing their clutch issues is wrong, most are improvements but I'm pretty certain that heat management, however that can be resolved is key. Possibly it could be mitigated with cooling in some form or fashion but how? and it still leaves the issue in place with a bandaid.

[Fraxum]

If you track your 1LE (or any LS3 SS) you will eventually or sooner need a new clutch. When you do this replace the clutch slave cylinder and add the Tick line and bleeder. Do not put any stock clutch back in there. Hopefully the CA6 will get a better clutch. It is a Camaro sore point.

As mentioned the separate clutch reservoir is debatable. I like it because it keeps my dirty clutch fluid away from my brake fluid. And I change the reservoir fluid every time before I track (1/4 Mi) my car. With the reservoir, Tick line and obsessive attention to the condition of the clutch fluid the stock clutch can be somewhat reliable with stock power. But only somewhat. Once you go bigger the trouble gets worse faster.

There are tons of clutch threads out there with very detailed info. Search is your friend. What is on here in the 1LE section is only a small subset of that info. And there are many clutches. No one clutch is specifically for road racing. Some of them do not need the 500 mile break in and hold up extraordinarily well. But if you want a good reliable clutch it will cost you.

As I have been told many times you have to pay to play.

There should be a 1LE clutch sticky. Anyone who tracks will need it.

[EarlyApex]

After reading the clutch threads I have been making an effort to be easy on the clutch when on the track. No more engine braking for me. Up shifts are precise with speed not the emphasis. Down shifts are made during braking with extra care to match gear and engine rev's so as to not load the clutch during slow down. Use the brakes as pads are easier and cheaper to replace. I know that after my first track day with the Camaro I could smell the clutch when I parked it in the garage. I was definitely hard on it that day. Even with extra care I assume I will have to do some upgrades at some point.

[treplatano]

i do understand the motto of "pay-to-play". but if I have already invested 40k+ on the car, and have to invest 3-5K off the bat in driveline upgrades, just to have some fun, then maybe i'd rather play somewhere else.

don't get me wrong, i LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE my 1LE, but chevy you've got to do better if you want my money. when it comes down to it, i could have the same amount of fun on a Subraru BRZ for a fraction of the price. If it wasn't for my addiction to power and torque, then i'd be elsewhere. I bought this 1LE to get away from having to upgrade too much on a car.

My last car, I had invested over 50K in it, and made well over 500WHP and weighed half as much.

I know this is really none of your bzness or your concern, but if I go out and purchase a "track ready" car, then if may as well be really F'ing track ready.

[Camaro Dude]

I concur with the above statement.

[X25]

Originally Posted by treplatano

i do understand the motto of "pay-to-play". but if I have already invested 40k+ on the car, and have to invest 3-5K off the bat in driveline upgrades, just to have some fun, then maybe i'd rather play somewhere else.

don't get me wrong, i LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE my 1LE, but chevy you've got to do better if you want my money. when it comes down to it, i could have the same amount of fun on a Subraru BRZ for a fraction of the price. If it wasn't for my addiction to power and torque, then i'd be elsewhere. I bought this 1LE to get away from having to upgrade too much on a car.

My last car, I had invested over 50K in it, and made well over 500WHP and weighed half as much.

I know this is really none of your bzness or your concern, but if I go out and purchase a "track ready" car, then if may as well be really F'ing track ready.

I honestly don't know of any track ready car short of Ariel atom or KTM X-bow. Every car has an issue or two..

I went to my local dealer to buy a BRZ at the time, but I was pretty disappointed after the test drive. That boxer engine has a huge torque dip, and kills all the fun. I ended up buying a Miata, which feels sweeter despite having even less HP. This experience was also eclipsed by friends of mine.

[Camaro Dude]

Originally Posted by X25

I honestly don't know of any track ready car short of Ariel atom or KTM X-bow. Every car has an issue or two..

I went to my local dealer to buy a BRZ at the time, but I was pretty disappointed after the test drive. That boxer engine has a huge torque dip, and kills all the fun. I ended up buying a Miata, which feels sweeter despite having even less HP. This experience was also eclipsed by friends of mine.

You are right, to a certain extent, no car out there is 100% bullet proof. Every single one of them has a quirk or two, and these topics always get a lil and on virtually all other car forums, as people try to define what is the threshold, when one can call out a manufacturer to pony up via say a recall, when a part fails prematurely..

In order that I can "play" (on the track), I perfectly expect to pay out of pocket, on things like brake ducts, better pads, Dot 4 fluid, upgraded bushings that don't need to fall under NVH criteria, etc. Hell I'll even be OK with ponying up for an upgraded radiator on my own dime if the cars Achilles heel dictates it.

Now if a car needs a complete new clutch kit at the cost of close if not at 4 digits $$$$ (taxes and shipping included ) , oh and then a few hours labour $$$ to install it, a few weeks after purchase and a couple of laps on the track, just as you have begun your monthly payments on a $40000+ car, well, I mean, for some, that is not cool at all.

Just sayin'

[White_SS/RS]

To have a track ready car you would lose drivability and it would cost much more than what most would consider acceptable. And it would still have problems, race cars break all the time, it's just the nature of going fast.

Honestly, I'm not even upset about my clutch going to sh!t. Annoyed? Yes! But not upset. After well over 1k in track miles it's had its time. So, I'll put one in that is more capable and lighter.

[Camaro Dude]

Originally Posted by White_SS/RS

To have a track ready car you would lose drivability and it would cost much more than what most would consider acceptable. And it would still have problems, race cars break all the time, it's just the nature of going fast.

Honestly, I'm not even upset about my clutch going to sh!t. Annoyed? Yes! But not upset. After well over 1k in track miles it's had its time. So, I'll put one in that is more capable and lighter.

1000 track miles is IMHO, very impressive, even I'd laugh you out of my service bay, if you came in seeking warranty coverage. I'd literally lol! Lol

I'm being more sympathetic to those who claim that their clutch pedal dropped to the floor after brief track run and/or hard romp on the street even.