[drivingisfun]

Hi everyone, as the title suggests, I'm curious about the SS 1LE. I'm planning on buying a car sometime next year to replace my current daily driver so I've been doing a lot of research on the most fun cars money can buy for under $45,000. I've recently become smitten by the pony cars and have spent a lot of time reading about the Mustang GT PP1/PP2/Bullitt in particular. I haven't driven them, but I liked the sight lines, the larger trunk space, and above all else the exhaust note.


That being said, as I've been watching and reading reviews for it, I've started paying a lot more attention to the Camaro, specifically the 2SS 1LE. The Camaro to my ears doesn't sound as exotic as the Mustang, but it still sounds amazing. The reviews also suggested that the Camaro has a better build quality. Above all else, I'm drawn to the better driving dynamic for spirited driving and a better transmission.



Despite that, the Camaro still has more major compromises as a daily driver. This is where my questions come in.


1) Is it possible to fit 2 large suitcases, 2 carry-on bags, and 2 backpacks in the car? If I'm going on a flight with another person I'd like to be able to take my car with me to the airport and fit all our things.


2) How stiff is the SS 1LE? Can they be comfortable enough to go on long road trips when not all of the roads are well maintained? Essentially how capable are they as grand tourers?


3) If I go to the track 4 or fewer times a year and live in Florida where the roads are either long and straight or short and twisty with a lot of traffic lights, will I still enjoy driving the 1LE?


4) How reliable would you say the Camaro is in comparison to the Mustang, and how bad is the maintenance?


5) With how bad the visibility of the Camaro is compared to what I'm used to, how bad are the blind spots, and how blind are you at night if you're driving in front of an SUV or truck with bright low-beams? How scary is it to drive at night in general?


6) Lastly if I do decide to get a Camaro in a year or two, will I have to pay a lot more to get the car I want if it's located at a dealer 300+ miles away from me? For some reason my 250 mile radius refuses to inventory manual 2SS's and 2SS 1LEs. They have tons of the 4 cylinders and 6 cylinders but only about 5-10 total V8s and that's split as 7 LT1s and 3 ZL1s.

[Msquared]

1) I am pretty sure you can fit all that stuff plus two humans in the car. The trunk has decent space inside it - it's the trunk opening that is really small. But you can also lay the seatbacks down and use all the back seat area. Even if you stood the two big suitcases up in the back seats and seatbelted them in, you'd have more than enough room in the trunk for everything else.
2) The beauty of the MR dampers is that on Tour mode the car rides pretty well. The spring rates feel fairly stiff, but not jarringly so. I just took a 70mi highway cruise yesterday in my 2020, and it was really quite nice. The OE tires are loud and probably don't ride all that well. With more touring-oriented tires, I think this thing would be great for GT missions.
3) Can't really answer this. But I've enjoyed driving mine around town.
4) Can't really answer this with any degree of validity, and neither can anyone else. There is no clearinghouse for reliability data, despite what CR and JD Power would like you to think. I do know people with current-gen Mustangs who have had significant issues, FWIW. Overall, all modern production cars are vastly more reliable than any car was 30-40 years ago. It's hard to go wrong (unless you buy an Alfa Romeo, perhaps).
5) It's actually not as bad as I expected. The biggest thing is that people need to learn to use their side mirrors properly. They should be aimed so that you don't see any of the car itself in their fields of vision. That way, you can see any cars in the mirrors that are otherwise in the blind spots. When set up like this, a quick glance shows you what (if anything) is in the mirror and also any cars that are visible through the side window. Between that and your interior rear-view mirror, you have everything covered.
6) If you work with a dealer that is motivated to sell you a car, they will locate cars in a 300mi radius. Mine did. The online inventory search just flat-out didn't work at all for me. The dealer located cars that I couldn't see. I'd talk to a few local dealers and work with the one that wants to work with you, not just on locating a car but on price.

[s346k]

1) yes. lots of room for stuff in the car. small trunk opening to bear in mind.

2) the car is forgiving on tour mode, not at all on track mode. subjective at best, but i find the car quite tolerable.

3 subjective at best. id answer no. the car is a beast and to honestly have fun driving it around, it needs some room to stretch it’s legs. it doesn’t really come alive until 75+.

4) mechanically very reliable. it utilizes a very robust power train. everything else idk. my 18 has 15k mikes on it and i’ve had 0 issues. i can’t compare it to a new mustang.

5) visibility is not great. but driving as one should presents no issues. the car sits low-ish so any new vehicle with not halogen headlights will possibly affect you at night. otherwise, it’s normal.

6) no. if you’re looking at new cars especially, dealers will work with you. they are no different than any other car.

[drivingisfun]

Originally Posted by Msquared

1) I am pretty sure you can fit all that stuff plus two humans in the car. The trunk has decent space inside it - it's the trunk opening that is really small. But you can also lay the seatbacks down and use all the back seat area. Even if you stood the two big suitcases up in the back seats and seatbelted them in, you'd have more than enough room in the trunk for everything else.
2) The beauty of the MR dampers is that on Tour mode the car rides pretty well. The spring rates feel fairly stiff, but not jarringly so. I just took a 70mi highway cruise yesterday in my 2020, and it was really quite nice. The OE tires are loud and probably don't ride all that well. With more touring-oriented tires, I think this thing would be great for GT missions.
3) Can't really answer this. But I've enjoyed driving mine around town.
4) Can't really answer this with any degree of validity, and neither can anyone else. There is no clearinghouse for reliability data, despite what CR and JD Power would like you to think. I do know people with current-gen Mustangs who have had significant issues, FWIW. Overall, all modern production cars are vastly more reliable than any car was 30-40 years ago. It's hard to go wrong (unless you buy an Alfa Romeo, perhaps).
5) It's actually not as bad as I expected. The biggest thing is that people need to learn to use their side mirrors properly. They should be aimed so that you don't see any of the car itself in their fields of vision. That way, you can see any cars in the mirrors that are otherwise in the blind spots. When set up like this, a quick glance shows you what (if anything) is in the mirror and also any cars that are visible through the side window. Between that and your interior rear-view mirror, you have everything covered.
6) If you work with a dealer that is motivated to sell you a car, they will locate cars in a 300mi radius. Mine did. The online inventory search just flat-out didn't work at all for me. The dealer located cars that I couldn't see. I'd talk to a few local dealers and work with the one that wants to work with you, not just on locating a car but on price.

Thanks for the reply! This really makes me more comfortable in strongly considering a Camaro 1LE. I might have to check out the 2SS with the magnetic ride dampers as well to see how capable it is. All in all, I wish the Camaro had the same exhaust note as the Mustang's Coyote, but knowing that I'll have the Tremec with the Camaro instead of the MT-82from the Mustang will be really nice. Based on what you said, it sounds like the tradeoffs with the Camaro will be more worth it than the tradeoffs with the Mustang. I think you may have just pushed the 1LE to the top of my list.

[drivingisfun]

Originally Posted by s346k

2) the car is forgiving on tour mode, not at all on track mode. subjective at best, but i find the car quite tolerable.

3 subjective at best. id answer no. the car is a beast and to honestly have fun driving it around, it needs some room to stretch it’s legs. it doesn’t really come alive until 75+.

Thanks for the reply! This definitely gives me something to think about. Would you say a 2SS with magnetic dampers would get the job done considering the 1LE won't get to come alive in my neck of the woods?

[s346k]

Originally Posted by drivingisfun

Thanks for the reply! This definitely gives me something to think about. Would you say a 2SS with magnetic dampers would get the job done considering the 1LE won't get to come alive in my neck of the woods?

hard to say, only you know your intentions. both 1LE and regular ss cars require 10 qt oil changes. the 1LE needs tires every 15k miles unless you really drive it hard, in which case i’d say 10k miles. my tires are done-ski @ 15k miles. i’ve driven it fairly hard, not as much cornering as i’d like. several burnouts and much general hoodrat stuff, though.

[JamesNoBrakes]

1) Is it possible to fit 2 large suitcases, 2 carry-on bags, and 2 backpacks in the car? If I'm going on a flight with another person I'd like to be able to take my car with me to the airport and fit all our things.

Kind of, it will require putting some of that behind the front seats or putting the rear seats down and loading it into the rear from the front seats. The carry-ons and backpacks are no problem, but large suitcases usually don't fit through the trunk opening. The trunk space is decent, but hard to get to. The rear seats are fairly generous in that respect though, so for minimal frustration, best to just load the suitcases there, still a bit frustrating having to move the passenger seat all the way forward and put it down, otherwise you still won't fit the suitcases through.


2) How stiff is the SS 1LE? Can they be comfortable enough to go on long road trips when not all of the roads are well maintained? Essentially how capable are they as grand tourers?

It's not that stiff and a good ground tourer, this is mostly due to the magnetic shocks that are adjustable, you can go to tour and snow-n-ice settings that are pretty comfortable. Coming from a BMW that had adjustable damping with dinan lowering springs, the ride in sport is comparable and track is only a little stiffer, with more damping that "sucks" the car down. The anti-sway bars are stiffer, so in uneven terrain you will have more force transmitted sideways, but just cruising this isn't a big issue. One big problem with this is that everyone always rationalizes their DD, whether it's a ZL1 1LE, a 911 GT3 RS, lowered civic with 1/2" of suspension travel, etc. They always say "it's fine" and blah blah blah. The SS 1LE punches way above it's weight as far as suspension, mostly due to excellent chassis and tuning. Even with upgraded sways and springs, my BMW was not as stiff as a "M", so in my estimation, the SS 1LE is also not as stiff as an M.


3) If I go to the track 4 or fewer times a year and live in Florida where the roads are either long and straight or short and twisty with a lot of traffic lights, will I still enjoy driving the 1LE?

Depends. The more traffic you drive in, the less you'll probably enjoy it. Ultimately moving the clutch still takes effort and the more lights you have, the more this tends to suck. The BMW had active cruise control with stop-n-go, which was amazing. I'm thinking this summer of finding a used one to trade in my SUV for, because it's so nice for certain things.


4) How reliable would you say the Camaro is in comparison to the Mustang, and how bad is the maintenance?

Nothing out of the ordinary.

5) With how bad the visibility of the Camaro is compared to what I'm used to, how bad are the blind spots, and how blind are you at night if you're driving in front of an SUV or truck with bright low-beams? How scary is it to drive at night in general?

Blind spots are mitigated by proper mirror positioning, which 95% of drivers DO NOT do. The key word is "mitigated". The problem doesn't go away completely, you adapt and you learn to be careful. I got the 2SS version for the blind spot monitoring, which I think should come standard on this car given the visibility. Fairly quickly you get accustomed to the size of the car and know where the edges are. Humans are amazingly adaptable, so I wouldn't worry too much. The rear cross-traffic warning is also outstanding (on the 2SS), if something is anywhere near the car, even if it's out of sight, moving across the rear, it'll warn you. I had an older 2010 and this is lightyears ahead in the backing-up department. The 2SS also has auto-dimming mirrors, so no issues being blinded. Tinted rear helps a little (but not nearly as much as the mirrors). It's not scary to drive at night, however, without proper mirror position and putting the mirrors in the "feel good-I can see the rear of the car" position, you can get into some real bad situations at night or in the day cutting across more than one lane. You won't be able to see a car two lanes away in the blind spot with improper mirror placement. The other thing you do, which I had already adapted to due to a long-nose WRX before the first camaro, is give yourself some buffer for curbs when pulling into parking spaces. Even SUVs have low air-dams these days, but lots of morons just pull their car forward till the wheel rams the curb, blocking the sidewalk if it's a street and ripping the bumper/air-dam off the car. There's a low splitter out front and you should give yourself some buffer there when pulling into a spot, even if you have to get back in and pull up after an initial "park".

IMO, the design of the car is fairly exotic, with the seating position, low windshield, the real sloping back (which gives the same usable view as my BMW by the way). People that ride in it comment that it seems like a fighter jet, etc. The price you pay for this is the adaptation and mitigation above.

6) Lastly if I do decide to get a Camaro in a year or two, will I have to pay a lot more to get the car I want if it's located at a dealer 300+ miles away from me? For some reason my 250 mile radius refuses to inventory manual 2SS's and 2SS 1LEs. They have tons of the 4 cylinders and 6 cylinders but only about 5-10 total V8s and that's split as 7 LT1s and 3 ZL1s

Well, whenever you have to order you usually have to pay a bit more.

Lastly, the 1LE is a driver's car, it takes the driving excitement up to 10 IMO, even if you don't track. It offers the most bang for the buck in that department. Being able to pull well over 1G cornering is amazing.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by drivingisfun

Thanks for the reply! This definitely gives me something to think about. Would you say a 2SS with magnetic dampers would get the job done considering the 1LE won't get to come alive in my neck of the woods?

I have a 2SS with magnetic ride control, and it's an amazingly wonderful car.

JamesNoBrakes gave an excellent summary that I won't rehash from the "non-1LE" perspective, suffice to say that the majority of the 1LE's extra capability comes from its wide wheels and tires, which is always an option for a non-1LE, aftermarket or OEM. And although you can't make a 1LE out of a "regular" 2SS, you can get 80-90% of the way there later in case you want to (the rest is the electronic diff that cannot be retrofitted, things like the spoiler, seats, steering wheel material or hood wrap won't make a difference IMO unless you go balls to the wall).

[JROC]

The PP2 is Fords attempt to try and use a cheaper GT to compete with a SS 1LE. Pretty embarrassing for them to have their fancy/pricey Shelby's (including the R models) getting outhandled by a SS with a handling package. Lol. But seriously the reason I don't have a S550 car is because as a platform it's mediocre (maybe good) at best from a performance standpoint. Alpha is an excellent performance platform. Not as easy to live with as it's ergonomics aren't as inviting as Mustangs, but it's not bad.

Look I used to be a Mustang fanboy, and I like the GT PP2. It's a nice looking car. But it works hard to try and compete with the SS 1LE. For example it's rocking Michelin SC2's in 305's on all 4 corners to try and hang. It's tires have worse life expectancy and are much more expensive than the GY's on the 1LE. And getting 10K out of a 1LE's tires is pretty good. Plus the PP2 and GT350's are known for tramlining way worse than the SS 1LE or any GEN6 Camaro is know for.

The thing that annoys me about Ford is they always budget on the chassis and suspension setup of the Mustang much more than GM does with Camaro, and this is nothing new. (I will say I prefer S197 over Zeta though) Then they'll release a very worked over model that's basically a racecar for the streets and people act like that means the Mustangs are the better handling platform. For example a GEN3/GEN4 Fbody has a much superior chassis and suspension setup than Foxbody/SN95 has, but Ford went all out with the Cobra R's and only built 107 in 93, 250 in 95, and 300 in 2000 but they had the best performance during their respective era's. Still having a minimalistic interior, with deleted audio and A/C, hoses to pass air to coolers on the car coming thru the interior, etc didn't make for very inviting street cars. GM didn't offer Fbody's as hardcore of a turn-key racecar for the streets back then. But this is kind of like what Chevy did with the GEN5 Z/28. It would kill any factory S197 on a road course, but I still feel like S197 is a superior platform but many will argue against that.

I do think Coyote is very good, but so is LT1. I don't really think Coyote sounds better than the LT motors though. Some say Coyote sounds better at idle and LT1 sounds better at WOT. I will say this IMO LT sounds better than LS, (other than maybe LS7) but Coyote doesn't sound as good as older Modulars. For example as crappy flowing as 2V Modulars are, you put a good exhaust setup on one and they sound great. Also a Terminator is a much better sounding car than a Coyote. Don't get me wrong Coyotes generally sound pretty good, but they're not the end all to good sounding motors. But I guess motor sounds are subjective. IMO Voodoo is the most overrated motor in terms of sound quality that I've ever seen. They're like my old LS1 in that at WOT they sound pissed and badass like they're powerful and ready to run, but their tone isn't all that sexy IMO.

Go drive both and see which one you prefer and go with that. It's your money so spend it as you see fit. Really either car offers more handling performance than you're going to sanely use on the street, but it's still fun to have.

[Aragorn]

OP, One thing I did not like about the mustang, was how much you had to rev it to reach maximum power. The Camaro has a lot of torque and power down low.

[IH8WNTR]

Not sure if the OP is aware, the 1SS 1LE also comes with the magnetic dampening. I do 2 track days or so a year and a lot of the roads here in the bay area are awful. In tour mode its really not bad. I have enjoyed driving it every time it has been driven by me. Even traffic doesn't feel as crappy. The only thing I wish it had was the better audio.

[LESS1]

A little over a year ago I was where you are now in your consideration of a new car. In my case, I was looking for a more track focused car. After months of research, I narrowed my choices down to Porsche Cayman GTS 4.0, GT350R, C7 Corvette Grand Sport and Camaro SS 1LE. Obviously, since I am responding to you in this forum I choose a 2019 SS 1LE. This is a fantastic car and really does "punch above its weight" giving cars that cost thousands more all they can handle and then some.

As someone else already mentioned, the 1LE is a track car first, street car second. fantastic driving dynamics and feedback. Better than S550 platform hands down no matter which iteration. You can not do better in the new car market than SS 1LE dollar for dollar, there simply isn't any competition.

Herein lies the problem, all of these track enhancements come at a cost to the bottom line. If you only go to track days/HPDE occasionally each year and value comfort features like heated and cooled seats, navigation, blind-spot monitoring and technology over lap times and are considering a Camaro. I'd advise you to focus on 2SS with MRC, toss in NPP if you like a louder exhaust at times.

As described, this package will provide the comfort it sounds like you are after and would do very well at your HPDE events and should have little trouble keeping up with or staying in front of PP1/PP2 cars with a decent driver. Should you want to go faster an upgrade to your 2SS MRC/NPP with SS 1LE wheels and tires will do wonders and will knock over a second or more off your lap times.

One last point on the "visibility" issue. For myself, I do not find this to be much bother at all. Having spent years riding motorcycles in Central FLA. You become accustomed to scanning the road in all directions in an effort to not end up under the car of a hoped up senior citizen on meds. On the flip side if your paying more attention to everything else besides the road and are careless, especially with lane changes and while backing up. Yeah, you'll have issues, otherwise, once you have spent time behind the wheel you will adapt to the differences. This is a trade-off GM choose to provide a much stiffer platform to build their track/performance car from. You really need to drive these cars back to back to get a sense of which is going to serve your needs. Best of luck to you in your decision making process and let us know what you decide, either way.

[JD_]

I have owned both a 2018 Mustang GT PP2 and my current car a 2018 SS 1LE. Actually, I technically owned both for a while in the Summer of 2018. Bought the GT PP2 on 9 June, 860 miles and 3 weeks later the motor grenaded. Bought the 1LE a few weeks later. The 1LE has been to the track for more than 10 events and 13k miles.

you be the judge.


PS and yes, that is pieces of piston/valves in the intake port in the last picture

[drivingisfun]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

1) Is it possible to fit 2 large suitcases, 2 carry-on bags, and 2 backpacks in the car? If I'm going on a flight with another person I'd like to be able to take my car with me to the airport and fit all our things.

Kind of, it will require putting some of that behind the front seats or putting the rear seats down and loading it into the rear from the front seats. The carry-ons and backpacks are no problem, but large suitcases usually don't fit through the trunk opening. The trunk space is decent, but hard to get to. The rear seats are fairly generous in that respect though, so for minimal frustration, best to just load the suitcases there, still a bit frustrating having to move the passenger seat all the way forward and put it down, otherwise you still won't fit the suitcases through.


2) How stiff is the SS 1LE? Can they be comfortable enough to go on long road trips when not all of the roads are well maintained? Essentially how capable are they as grand tourers?

It's not that stiff and a good ground tourer, this is mostly due to the magnetic shocks that are adjustable, you can go to tour and snow-n-ice settings that are pretty comfortable. Coming from a BMW that had adjustable damping with dinan lowering springs, the ride in sport is comparable and track is only a little stiffer, with more damping that "sucks" the car down. The anti-sway bars are stiffer, so in uneven terrain you will have more force transmitted sideways, but just cruising this isn't a big issue. One big problem with this is that everyone always rationalizes their DD, whether it's a ZL1 1LE, a 911 GT3 RS, lowered civic with 1/2" of suspension travel, etc. They always say "it's fine" and blah blah blah. The SS 1LE punches way above it's weight as far as suspension, mostly due to excellent chassis and tuning. Even with upgraded sways and springs, my BMW was not as stiff as a "M", so in my estimation, the SS 1LE is also not as stiff as an M.


3) If I go to the track 4 or fewer times a year and live in Florida where the roads are either long and straight or short and twisty with a lot of traffic lights, will I still enjoy driving the 1LE?

Depends. The more traffic you drive in, the less you'll probably enjoy it. Ultimately moving the clutch still takes effort and the more lights you have, the more this tends to suck. The BMW had active cruise control with stop-n-go, which was amazing. I'm thinking this summer of finding a used one to trade in my SUV for, because it's so nice for certain things.


4) How reliable would you say the Camaro is in comparison to the Mustang, and how bad is the maintenance?

Nothing out of the ordinary.

5) With how bad the visibility of the Camaro is compared to what I'm used to, how bad are the blind spots, and how blind are you at night if you're driving in front of an SUV or truck with bright low-beams? How scary is it to drive at night in general?

Blind spots are mitigated by proper mirror positioning, which 95% of drivers DO NOT do. The key word is "mitigated". The problem doesn't go away completely, you adapt and you learn to be careful. I got the 2SS version for the blind spot monitoring, which I think should come standard on this car given the visibility. Fairly quickly you get accustomed to the size of the car and know where the edges are. Humans are amazingly adaptable, so I wouldn't worry too much. The rear cross-traffic warning is also outstanding (on the 2SS), if something is anywhere near the car, even if it's out of sight, moving across the rear, it'll warn you. I had an older 2010 and this is lightyears ahead in the backing-up department. The 2SS also has auto-dimming mirrors, so no issues being blinded. Tinted rear helps a little (but not nearly as much as the mirrors). It's not scary to drive at night, however, without proper mirror position and putting the mirrors in the "feel good-I can see the rear of the car" position, you can get into some real bad situations at night or in the day cutting across more than one lane. You won't be able to see a car two lanes away in the blind spot with improper mirror placement. The other thing you do, which I had already adapted to due to a long-nose WRX before the first camaro, is give yourself some buffer for curbs when pulling into parking spaces. Even SUVs have low air-dams these days, but lots of morons just pull their car forward till the wheel rams the curb, blocking the sidewalk if it's a street and ripping the bumper/air-dam off the car. There's a low splitter out front and you should give yourself some buffer there when pulling into a spot, even if you have to get back in and pull up after an initial "park".

IMO, the design of the car is fairly exotic, with the seating position, low windshield, the real sloping back (which gives the same usable view as my BMW by the way). People that ride in it comment that it seems like a fighter jet, etc. The price you pay for this is the adaptation and mitigation above.

6) Lastly if I do decide to get a Camaro in a year or two, will I have to pay a lot more to get the car I want if it's located at a dealer 300+ miles away from me? For some reason my 250 mile radius refuses to inventory manual 2SS's and 2SS 1LEs. They have tons of the 4 cylinders and 6 cylinders but only about 5-10 total V8s and that's split as 7 LT1s and 3 ZL1s

Well, whenever you have to order you usually have to pay a bit more.

Lastly, the 1LE is a driver's car, it takes the driving excitement up to 10 IMO, even if you don't track. It offers the most bang for the buck in that department. Being able to pull well over 1G cornering is amazing.

Originally Posted by arpad_m

I have a 2SS with magnetic ride control, and it's an amazingly wonderful car.

JamesNoBrakes gave an excellent summary that I won't rehash from the "non-1LE" perspective, suffice to say that the majority of the 1LE's extra capability comes from its wide wheels and tires, which is always an option for a non-1LE, aftermarket or OEM. And although you can't make a 1LE out of a "regular" 2SS, you can get 80-90% of the way there later in case you want to (the rest is the electronic diff that cannot be retrofitted, things like the spoiler, seats, steering wheel material or hood wrap won't make a difference IMO unless you go balls to the wall).

Thanks for the replies! Awesome to know that the 1LE is a capable grand tourer. I'm sure that I'll look for excuses to drive it for miles if I buy one. Also great to know how capable the 2SS is. Looking forward to test driving both of these, I just hope the dealers near me have them inventoried!