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Old 01-23-2014, 01:21 PM   #519
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
I'll agree with you. However this has been discussed over and over yet the poster continues to ask the same questions hence my previous deja vu comment. I believe there is an existing thread ZL1 vs Z/28 and that is where this discussion should be. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323245

Regarding a previous post on, when was the Z/28 ever a momentum car? 1Gen.
I am done asking questions and am largely just replying to exiting posts, having some fun and learning a few things along the way. You?
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:30 PM   #520
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Lingenfelter can offer a 616 horsepower LS7 because CAFE and emissions regulations do not apply to them.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:32 PM   #521
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Suspension travel and forces are immense during hard cornering, hitting the curbs, braking and even accelerating, etc.
8mm difference is aboslutely inconsequential to "making sure it will last". Albeit it does lower the CG which is almost always better for performance.
But yes, ideally, we would all like the suspension to be calibrated just so. But in real world of track events it rarily happens. Not to this level of detail.
Almost 40 lb/corner, sprung and unsprung weight savings, IS very consequential...


At the OEM level of detail, I think you'll find that Stielow et al have really "sweat the small stuff"...

Last edited by LOWDOWN; 01-23-2014 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:38 PM   #522
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No one disputes the fact there's more available from the LS7. That is PRECISELY WHY it only has 505-net from GM WITH a 5/100 warranty.

ANY engine from ANY OEM can be enhanced...at a likely penalty to BOTH durability AND fuel economy, two things most aftermarket outfits don't have to concern themselves with.

And LPE's warranty is NOT 5/100... "With our commitment to producing quality products Lingenfelter includes our 3 year / 36,000 mile warranty standard on installed engine packages"
Yes fully agree. Yet if a tuner shop can offer 3/36 warranty, surely GM could do much better given they have had this engine for a loooong time and know it better than anyone else. My point was, offering it at 505 seems like an afterthought to me especially if all other components can easily handle much more . If this car was in dev for 2 yrs as some had suggested, more could have been done power wise within the price envelope. Just my opinion.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:49 PM   #523
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Yes fully agree. Yet if a tuner shop can offer 3/36 warranty, surely GM could do much better given they have had this engine for a loooong time and know it better than anyone else. My point was, offering it at 505 seems like an afterthought to me especially if all other components can easily handle much more . If this car was in dev for 2 yrs as some had suggested, more could have been done power wise within the price envelope. Just my opinion.
You're unfortunately correct...it is YOUR opinion.

A) Have seat, and a CAFE!

Every time you add a horse, you have to feed it...whether it's a pony or a stallion, it has to be fed its oats...

Every time you make those horses run...HARD!...you have two results:

1) Even more hay is required

2) "The old gray mare, she ain't what she used to be..."

How much of LPE's charge for upgrade do you think they apportion for "be-backs" (warranty)? For 3 years or 36,000 miles? How much has each C6 Z06 cost GM for FIVE years and 100,000 miles-worth of coverage (I'm pretty sure GM has a number)?

B) DEVELOPMENT CO$T$...re-certify, re-validate, re-emissions-test, re-this, re-that...

You can ask, you can hope, you can wish, you can brow-beat (us AND them) BUT...ain't gonna happen...

BTW, a cam and open LTs and a proper tune will have you approaching 600. Which shop will YOU choose?
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:54 PM   #524
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Almost 40 lb/corner, unsprung weight savings, IS very consequential...


At the OEM level of detail, I think you'll find that Stielow et al have really "sweat the small stuff"...
Oh yeah absolutely: 40lb per corner of unsprung weight is huge! Remind me again what does it consist of? I thought wheels were about 10lb per corner and brakes less than that? Tires? Just curious.

My "inconsequential" comment was re lowering a ZL1 vis a vis its existing suspension.
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:01 PM   #525
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
Regarding a previous post on, when was the Z/28 ever a momentum car?
Coming soon.

Although a fair argument might be made for the current 1LE or possibly the 1982 Z28 by virtue(?) of having decent handling but not nearly enough power to call it "muscle".


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Old 01-23-2014, 02:03 PM   #526
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OEM warranties are derived from validation. There isn't an aftermarket company that exists that tests to the standards of an OEM. Aftermarket companies set warranty based on their experience with a product and their level of confidence in a product. Companies like LPE have sufficient financial strength to back their warranty. On the OEM side, GM would have to fully validate a modified LS7 and there is no way it would be remotely close to cost effective.

If you think that the 5th Gen IRS puts power down more effectively through the corners than a C7 Corvette, you may also think a more powerful Z/28 could do something amazing at the Ring. TEAM Camaro and Chevy Performance could choose to take a modified LS7 in a Z/28 to the Ring with an off road / racing use only disclaimer IF they thought it would sell Chevy Performance heads, cam and ECM with 600 RWHP. No warranty. No EPA. Just bragging rights for the fastest car GM ever sent to the Ring. Not that any Chief Engineer at a Big Three company would ever think that way or that anyone from TEAM Camaro ever drops in to Camaro5.

Lowdown, have you started that thread yet
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:05 PM   #527
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From GM's announcement release:

The Z/28’s unique exterior is designed like a race car to produce downforce that presses the tires against the track for greater grip – up to 1.08 g in cornering acceleration – and faster lap times. The aerodynamically optimized design helped the Camaro Z/28 log a lap on Germany’s legendary Nürburgring road course that was four seconds faster than the Camaro ZL1’s and beat published times for the Porsche 911 Carrera S and the Lamborghini Murcielago LP640.

Power comes from the 7.0L LS7 engine, with dry-sump oiling, rated at an SAE-certified 505 horsepower (376 kW) and 481 lb-ft of torque (652 Nm). The engine will be built by hand at the new Performance Build Center within GM’s Bowling Green assembly plant.

A close-ratio six-speed manual transmission is the only transmission offered and power is distributed to the rear wheels via a Torsen limited-slip differential featuring a helical gear set, rather than traditional clutch packs, for optimal traction. The differential works in unison with Chevrolet’s proprietary Performance Traction Management system, allowing drivers to adjust the level of throttle and braking intervention to match their capability and driving environment.

The Camaro Z/28 is also one of the first production cars fitted with race-proven, spool-valve dampers, which allow four-way damping control, enabling engineers to precisely tune both bump and rebound settings for high-speed and low-speed wheel motions. The wider tuning range also allows dramatically greater damper stiffness without a significant change in ride quality. Additional chassis changes include stiffer spring and bushing rates for improved cornering response.

Lightweight, 19-inch forged aluminum wheels and Pirelli PZero Trofeo R tires reduce unsprung weight by 49.6 pounds (22.5 kilograms) per car compared to the 20-inch wheels standard on Camaro SS and ZL1.

The massive 305/30ZR19 PZero Trofeo R tires represent the first production-car application in the industry and are believed to be the widest front tire on any production car. To fully exploit their grip, the Z/28 also features Brembo Carbon Ceramic Matrix™ rotors and fixed, monoblock calipers. The large 394 x 36 mm front rotors are paired with six-piston calipers, while the 390 x 32 mm rear rotors are paired four-piston calipers. Compared to similar-size, two-piece steel rotors, the lightweight carbon discs save 28 pounds (12.5 kg) per car.

The combination of tire grip and braking power enable the Camaro Z/28 to achieve at least 1.5 g in deceleration. With standard front brake cooling ducts, the Z/28 is also capable of continuous track use.


I can't put my finger on it, at the moment, but I believe the WD = almost exactly 50-50.

4120 (ZL1 Curb) X 51.8% = 2134. Delete the blower and plumbing (and MRC), add the dry-sump (and Multimatics), delete 14 lb (brakes) and 24.8 lb (wheels/tires) and I suspect the Front weight will be near-1900 lb...on a 3827 Curb.
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Oh yeah absolutely: 40lb per corner of unsprung weight is huge! Remind me again what does it consist of? I thought wheels were about 10lb per corner and brakes less than that? Tires? Just curious.

My "inconsequential" comment was re lowering a ZL1 vis a vis its existing suspension.
Seek guidance from Pete...
When I was a youngen, a few decades ago, my mother told me to "look in the dictionary" when I'd ask her "how to spell" a word. In this case, I've supplied the "dictionary"...which was only a few posts above.
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:09 PM   #528
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Lowdown, have you started that thread yet
Pete, I'm still stuck with the "dictionary"...





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Old 01-23-2014, 02:20 PM   #529
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When I was a youngen, a few decades ago, my mother told me to "look in the dictionary" when I'd ask her "how to spell" a word. In this case, I've supplied the "dictionary"...which was only a few posts above.
I count (from your post) 77.9LB per car hence my ask for details on 40lb per corner re unsprung weight. BTW ZL1 can be purchased with stock wheels that are 12lb lighter each (not the Z/28 wheels but ZL1 specific ones offered from a factory). This would make the Z/28 unsprung mass about 30lb lighter than a ZL1 in total, if one sprung for optional wheels vs standard. Unless my 77.9LB total is incorrect?
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:25 PM   #530
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I count (from your post) 77.9LB per car hence my ask for details on 40lb per corner re unsprung weight. BTW ZL1 can be purchased with stock wheels that are 12lb lighter each (not the Z/28 wheels but ZL1 specific ones offered from a factory). This would make the Z/28 unsprung mass about 30lb lighter than a ZL1 in total, if one sprung for optional wheels vs standard. Unless my 77.9LB total is incorrect?
Actually, it's greater than that. First of all, GM's Curb rating is based on Base car, not "optioned" - up OR down. And, of course, MRC, for all is actual electro-mechanical marvels, is HEAVY...much heavier than the Multimatics, including wiring and controller (and NO, I don't have a precise measure of that difference, but someone may offer an idea). But the difference IN TOTAL (Base-to-Base) is nearly 40lb/corner...

Last edited by LOWDOWN; 01-23-2014 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:24 PM   #531
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Actually, it's greater than that. First of all, GM's Curb rating is based on Base car, not "optioned" - up OR down. And, of course, MRC, for all is actual electro-mechanical marvels, is HEAVY...much heavier than the Multimatics, including wiring and controller (and NO, I don't have a precise measure of that difference, but someone may offer an idea). But the difference IN TOTAL (Base-to-Base) is nearly 40lb/corner...
If we are talking UNsprung mass, the only thing that can affect the base to base comparo is ZL1 optional wheels (which account for circa 48lb reduction of its unsprung mass, per car). There are no other options to consider in either car that would qualify. I also can't imagine the unsprung mass would differ by 160lb per car between them two. If that were to be correct, than 160 + 140 lighter motor would account for the TOTAL 300lb curb weight difference. Given they've reduced weight of other components (rear seat for example was 40+ lbs alone plus thinner rear window, lighter seats, no fog lamps, etc) this leaves me confused as to what you're suggesting.
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:53 PM   #532
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Almost 40 lb/corner, sprung and unsprung weight savings, IS very consequential...


At the OEM level of detail, I think you'll find that Stielow et al have really "sweat the small stuff"...
Quote:
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If we are talking UNsprung mass, the only thing that can affect the base to base comparo is ZL1 optional wheels (which account for circa 48lb reduction of its unsprung mass, per car). There are no other options to consider in either car that would qualify. I also can't imagine the unsprung mass would differ by 160lb per car between them two. If that were to be correct, than 160 + 140 lighter motor would account for the TOTAL 300lb curb weight difference. Given they've reduced weight of other components (rear seat for example was 40+ lbs alone plus thinner rear window, lighter seats, no fog lamps, etc) this leaves me confused as to what you're suggesting.
The sprung AND unsprung weight differential, Base-to-Base per corner, approaches 40 lb. Wheels-tires-suspension-brakes.

Edited, and thanks.
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