Tesla license plate led to some research - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

JUSTIFIED · 11-06-2016, 09:45 AM

Disclaimer: I understand that I drive a gas guzzler and this not an attempt to refute the fact that Co2 emissions are harmful nor is this intended to be a rip job on electric cars. However, facts are facts and electric cars aren't as eco friendly as most believe them to be. We often leap to conclusions without all of the facts. Case in point...many believe wind turbines are eco friendly, but most do not know that nearly 600K birds and nearly 1 million bats are killed by them each year in the US alone. I'm not railing on wind turbines... just the fact that most do not know all of the facts.

My quest to become a bit more educated began the other day when I saw a guy in a Tesla drove with a license plate that read NO OPEC. He was obviously proud of himself for helping rid our streets of gas guzzlers, thus reducing our dependency on foreign oil imports. Additionally, I'd bet that he most likely believes his Tesla is much more eco friendly than our gas guzzling Z/28s.

Sure, on the street an electric car does emit zero Co2. However, the total manufacturing process (known as "well to wheel") paints a much different picture.

Below is an excerpt from this link https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas...t-green-think/. To be fair, the story goes on to say that, in the end, electric cars are more eco friendly. The question they don't answer is by how much? Then, you have all of the batteries (Tesla batteries weigh over half a ton) that must be disposed of (or recycled). And, the environmental hazards of mining for all the precious metals that are used in batteries.

"Rare metals only exist in tiny quantities and inconvenient places—so you have to move a lot of earth to get just a little bit. In the Jiangxi rare earth mine in China, Abraham writes, workers dig eight-foot holes and pour ammonium sulfate into them to dissolve the sandy clay. Then they haul out bags of muck and pass it through several acid baths; what’s left is baked in a kiln, leaving behind the rare earths required by everything from our phones to our Teslas.
At this mine, those rare earths amounted to 0.2 percent of what gets pulled out of the ground. The other 99.8 percent—now contaminated with toxic chemicals—is dumped back into the environment. That damage is difficult to quantify, just like the impact of oil drilling.

And, as in every stage of the process, mining has hidden emissions. Jiangxi has it relatively easy because it’s digging up clay, but many mines rely on rock-crushing equipment with astronomical energy bills, as well as coal-fired furnaces for the final baking stages. Those spew a lot of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere in the process of refining a material destined for your zero-emissions car"

Our cars will be dinosaurs one day. I just hope we aren't robbing Peter to pay Paul!

Schlok · 11-06-2016, 09:50 AM

Agreed, all it does is shift the pollution from one area to another, there is "no free lunch"

pat_t · 11-06-2016, 03:30 PM

Nothing new. The full carbon footprint to build and assemble a Prius has always been more than most conventional cars.

djcolopi · 11-06-2016, 04:56 PM

I do have to point out that your fact about bird kills due to wind turbines is only partially correct. More birds die per year in the United States flying into windows then due to wind turbines; 988k. Wind turbines might kill around 33k birds per year. However, due to recent advancements in design and technology this number will plummet.

One meta-analysis actually documented the amount of birds killed per year due to different sources of energy by using other studies. However, each study used a different methodology to come up with their numbers. Sorry, environmental engineer here that is a big supporter of wind energy giving some insight on the topic.

On another note, petroleum is a cleaner energy source than coal. So your z/28 is more 'eco-friendly' depending on the energy source the electric vehicle uses.......in the US it is predominately generated by coal.

JUSTIFIED · 11-06-2016, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djcolopi

I do have to point out that your fact about bird kills due to wind turbines is only partially correct. More birds die per year in the United States flying into windows then due to wind turbines; 988k. Wind turbines might kill around 33k birds per year. However, due to recent advancements in design and technology this number will plummet.

One meta-analysis actually documented the amount of birds killed per year due to different sources of energy by using other studies. However, each study used a different methodology to come up with their numbers. Sorry, environmental engineer here that is a big supporter of wind energy giving some insight on the topic.

On another note, petroleum is a cleaner energy source than coal. So your z/28 is more 'eco-friendly' depending on the energy source the electric vehicle uses.......in the US it is predominately generated by coal.

Interesting insight. This is the source i used for wind turbines info..... http://instituteforenergyresearch.or...irds-and-bats/. It states that 988 million birds die each year due to building collisions.

djcolopi · 11-06-2016, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JUSTIFIED

Interesting insight. This is the source i used for wind turbines info..... http://instituteforenergyresearch.or...irds-and-bats/. It states that 988 million birds die each year due to building collisions.

No matter what though their is always going to be an impact on the environment. We just need to accept that as a fact and minimize it. Turbines located in migratory paths are now being painted with strips. They are also developing ultrasonic acoustic determent's. Bat Conservation International has been collaborating with Deaton Engineering to design ultrasonic “boom boxes” that emit continuous high-frequency sounds, from 10 kHz to 100 kHz, intended to confuse bats’ echolocation to the point that they avoid the area. Engineers and designers are also implementing radar and strike detection to prevent/minimize bird collisions.

The_Raging_Bull · 11-12-2016, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djcolopi

I do have to point out that your fact about bird kills due to wind turbines is only partially correct. More birds die per year in the United States flying into windows then due to wind turbines; 988k. Wind turbines might kill around 33k birds per year. However, due to recent advancements in design and technology this number will plummet.

One meta-analysis actually documented the amount of birds killed per year due to different sources of energy by using other studies. However, each study used a different methodology to come up with their numbers. Sorry, environmental engineer here that is a big supporter of wind energy giving some insight on the topic.

On another note, petroleum is a cleaner energy source than coal. So your z/28 is more 'eco-friendly' depending on the energy source the electric vehicle uses.......in the US it is predominately generated by coal.

not to be eco unfriendly, but to add some reality there ate 400 to 500 billion birds in the world, so worrying about 33000 bird getting killed by wind turbines is worry about 6.6 ppm of all birds world wide, so for this we're going to forgo a possible winning technology...REALLY?

djcolopi · 11-29-2016, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Raging_Bull

not to be eco unfriendly, but to add some reality there ate 400 to 500 billion birds in the world, so worrying about 33000 bird getting killed by wind turbines is worry about 6.6 ppm of all birds world wide, so for this we're going to forgo a possible winning technology...REALLY?

I think you misunderstood my post. I was just expanding on the information that was already posted. So what I posted was actually supporting wind technology.

JUSTIFIED · 12-04-2016, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djcolopi

I think you misunderstood my post. I was just expanding on the information that was already posted. So what I posted was actually supporting wind technology.

I started this whole thing... sorry... I wasn't trying to say we should not use wind turbine tech. I was just pointing out that the Tesla guy prob has no clue about eco impact (not just birds...) of alternative energy sources. Now, if we could just keep the Chinese from stealing the wind turbine SW patents...

djcolopi · 12-08-2016, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JUSTIFIED

I started this whole thing... sorry... I wasn't trying to say we should not use wind turbine tech. I was just pointing out that the Tesla guy prob has no clue about eco impact (not just birds...) of alternative energy sources. Now, if we could just keep the Chinese from stealing the wind turbine SW patents...

I agree! A big problem in society is misinformation and lack of knowledge on topics. People read something online, read a sentence in a textbook or discuss something with someone and next thing you know they are an expert on the topic. A current situation that involves this is the Dakota Access Pipeline. People on both sides are spreading misinformation and believe they know what the problem is. I know plenty of people that believe society can exist without oil; sorry but Petroleum is King. It is not just used as a source of energy and fuel. If you want to protest the pipeline, stop using any products that uses petroleum in the process or are made from petroleum. Get off the internet, stop driving vehicles, sorry no bikes you need to walk everywhere, barefoot and on unpaved surfaces............However, could the pipeline be routed through a better location? Probably. Its not IF a leak will occur its WHEN a leak/spill is going to occur.

backtotintops · 12-09-2016, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pat_t

Nothing new. The full carbon footprint to build and assemble a Prius has always been more than most conventional cars.

+1 if you count the shipping on actual ships for components for this car it is staggering.

11-06-2016, 09:45 AM	#1
JUSTIFIED Drives: 2015 black Z/28 Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Texas Posts: 1,077	Tesla license plate led to some research Disclaimer: I understand that I drive a gas guzzler and this not an attempt to refute the fact that Co2 emissions are harmful nor is this intended to be a rip job on electric cars. However, facts are facts and electric cars aren't as eco friendly as most believe them to be. We often leap to conclusions without all of the facts. Case in point...many believe wind turbines are eco friendly, but most do not know that nearly 600K birds and nearly 1 million bats are killed by them each year in the US alone. I'm not railing on wind turbines... just the fact that most do not know all of the facts. My quest to become a bit more educated began the other day when I saw a guy in a Tesla drove with a license plate that read NO OPEC. He was obviously proud of himself for helping rid our streets of gas guzzlers, thus reducing our dependency on foreign oil imports. Additionally, I'd bet that he most likely believes his Tesla is much more eco friendly than our gas guzzling Z/28s. Sure, on the street an electric car does emit zero Co2. However, the total manufacturing process (known as "well to wheel") paints a much different picture. Below is an excerpt from this link https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas...t-green-think/. To be fair, the story goes on to say that, in the end, electric cars are more eco friendly. The question they don't answer is by how much? Then, you have all of the batteries (Tesla batteries weigh over half a ton) that must be disposed of (or recycled). And, the environmental hazards of mining for all the precious metals that are used in batteries. "Rare metals only exist in tiny quantities and inconvenient places—so you have to move a lot of earth to get just a little bit. In the Jiangxi rare earth mine in China, Abraham writes, workers dig eight-foot holes and pour ammonium sulfate into them to dissolve the sandy clay. Then they haul out bags of muck and pass it through several acid baths; what’s left is baked in a kiln, leaving behind the rare earths required by everything from our phones to our Teslas. At this mine, those rare earths amounted to 0.2 percent of what gets pulled out of the ground. The other 99.8 percent—now contaminated with toxic chemicals—is dumped back into the environment. That damage is difficult to quantify, just like the impact of oil drilling. And, as in every stage of the process, mining has hidden emissions. Jiangxi has it relatively easy because it’s digging up clay, but many mines rely on rock-crushing equipment with astronomical energy bills, as well as coal-fired furnaces for the final baking stages. Those spew a lot of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere in the process of refining a material destined for your zero-emissions car" Our cars will be dinosaurs one day. I just hope we aren't robbing Peter to pay Paul! __________________ Last edited by JUSTIFIED; 11-06-2016 at 01:08 PM.

11-06-2016, 04:56 PM	#4
djcolopi Drives: @orange_maro Join Date: May 2014 Location: MD Posts: 1,036 View My Garage	I do have to point out that your fact about bird kills due to wind turbines is only partially correct. More birds die per year in the United States flying into windows then due to wind turbines; 988k. Wind turbines might kill around 33k birds per year. However, due to recent advancements in design and technology this number will plummet. One meta-analysis actually documented the amount of birds killed per year due to different sources of energy by using other studies. However, each study used a different methodology to come up with their numbers. Sorry, environmental engineer here that is a big supporter of wind energy giving some insight on the topic. On another note, petroleum is a cleaner energy source than coal. So your z/28 is more 'eco-friendly' depending on the energy source the electric vehicle uses.......in the US it is predominately generated by coal. Attached Images __________________ Instagram @orange_maro_

11-06-2016, 09:50 AM	#2
Schlok Drives: 2015 Z/28 #397 2022 ZL1 #1799 Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: DC Posts: 521	Agreed, all it does is shift the pollution from one area to another, there is "no free lunch"

11-06-2016, 03:30 PM	#3
pat_t Drives: . Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: . Posts: 589	Nothing new. The full carbon footprint to build and assemble a Prius has always been more than most conventional cars.