"thePill" is hard to swallow

[Number 3]

So from my previous engagements with the Pill is there is a bit of truth expounded on and even twisted to bash GM and Camaro.

I had one "discussion" around the use of high strength steel. He had read an article on how Ford had used HSS on the Fiesta or something and that is why Ford was so much better than GM. No clue on the fact that GM had used a great deal of it on the Camaro. So yes, Ford may have used HSS on one of their products, but had nothing to do with GM.

[Deki]

If people are touting the Z28 as a HPDE or track day car, and not for any sanctioned racing at all, why spend 70K on it if all you want to do is go fast around a track and beat your own time? You can do it for a lot less money, with a lot lighter platform, with a much better suspension if you don't care about being within rules of any race organization.

[derklug]

If you just want a track day car, an Ariel Atom is only $56,500 and will smoke damn near anything on the course.

[LOWDOWN]

10) You like the look of the car
9) You like the capabilities of the car...HPDE = HEHEHE!
8) You like the relative uniqueness of the car
7) You can afford one...or more...
6) You WANT one...or more...
5) You like the fact it can be legally street-driven, and insured for such
4) You still have room in your garage/basement/museum for one...or more...
3) "427 Camaro"...YUM!
2) "Carbon-Ceramic"...DUBBLE YUM!

And the NUMBER 1 REASON To Buy A Z/28:

1) Just to pi$$ off the fringe Doubting Thomases and Butt Hurtz on camaro5...

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

10) You like the look of the car
9) You like the capabilities of the car...HPDE = HEHEHE!
8) You like the relative uniqueness of the car
7) You can afford one...or more...
6) You WANT one...or more...
5) You like the fact it can be legally street-driven, and insured for such
4) You still have room in your garage/basement/museum for one...or more...
3) "427 Camaro"...YUM!
2) "Carbon-Ceramic"...DUBBLE YUM!

And the NUMBER 1 REASON To Buy A Z/28:

1) Just to pi$$ off the fringe Doubting Thomases and Butt Hurtz on camaro5...

I think reason # 3 can get repeated lol. 427 Camaro, I don't care who you are, or what brand you prefer, 427 Camaro just sounds awesome

[mkorgan]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I think reason # 3 can get repeated lol. 427 Camaro, I don't care who you are, or what brand you prefer, 427 Camaro just sounds awesome

I am going to get killed for this but you must realize where I am coming from on this as I may be older than most on this board.

I have owned 3 cars with 427's in them and I LOVE the 427 but I would not say I am in love with the LS7. I love the late 60's 427 true true big block that would still allow for a supercharger, nitrous, additional boring, or anything else that would put additional strain on the block that the LS7 is not designed to take. My view of the LS7 is a small block pushed to the very limits of what you can do with it which concerns me versus the old school 427's that still had a lot of iron (or aluminum in the case of the original ZL1) between the cylinder walls and did not have to rely on the heads so much for the added cc's of displacement. I think the issue with the heads on the LS7 and the recommendation to NOT S/C it speaks to just how close to the line of too far GM got with this power plant.

With that being said, I get what the LS7 was built for. It was built for getting the best of both world. Displacement of the big block and the high RPM's of a small block with the weight of a small block when weight is a major concerns as it is in road course driving. I get it. I just would prefer to have my 427ci come in a package that still has a little left on the table.

Ok, fire away. Hehehehe.

[LOWDOWN]

I think Thomson, and Livernois, and Lingenfelter, and a host of other companies can verify the fact that there is still "a little left on the table". Power-adders aside, 500+ rwhp IS available, with selected parts and a streetable tune... That number is beyond L-88/ZL1 power from back in the day, in any streetable state of tune, without power-adders. Gross engine dyno hp on well-tuned open-headered ZL1s put them about 525 GROSS hp...and 375 GROSS hp "as installed"...well under an LS3!

http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

The '69s were credited with (stock) 13.16 1/4-mile times...on par with a current SS-LS3. With 10" slicks and open headers (and a tune), 11.6s ensued which, for a car likely to weigh 400 lb. less than a '14 Z/28, the Gen-5 ZEE with similar mods will likely match.

NO carbureted BBC of any displacement is/was capable of near-30 mpg, carrying near-4000 lb., while idling down the Interstate @ '14 emissions levels.

"These ARE 'the good ol' days' !"

[LOWDOWN]

BTW, a '69 Camaro COPO 9560 (aka ZL1) was about TWICE the price of an SS 396-375 hp Camaro, with mandatory options but without all the features the Gen-5 Z/28 will include.

Keep in mind the JL8 - 4WDB option in '69 (NOT available on COPO cars) was another $500.30 feature on 12-bolt-equipped cars ($623.50 on 10-bolt - upgrade to 12-bolt diff necessary)...and those brakes were NOT Carbon-Ceramic...

[mkorgan]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

I think Thomson, and Livernois, and Lingenfelter, and a host of other companies can verify the fact that there is still "a little left on the table". Power-adders aside, 500+ rwhp IS available, with selected parts and a streetable tune... That number is beyond L-88/ZL1 power from back in the day, in any streetable state of tune, without power-adders. Gross engine dyno hp on well-tuned open-headered ZL1s put them about 525 GROSS hp...and 375 GROSS hp "as installed"...well under an LS3!

http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

The '69s were credited with (stock) 13.16 1/4-mile times...on par with a current SS-LS3. With 10" slicks and open headers (and a tune), 11.6s ensued which, for a car likely to weigh 400 lb. less than a '14 Z/28, the Gen-5 ZEE with similar mods will likely match.

NO carbureted BBC of any displacement is/was capable of near-30 mpg, carrying near-4000 lb., while idling down the Interstate @ '14 emissions levels.

"These ARE 'the good ol' days' !"

Not going to argue with you because you points are valid for a stock LS7 versus a stock ZL1 back in the day relative to stats but that is not what I was getting at with my post.

I don't care about mpg, emissions, or daily drivability. IF I did, I would LOVE the LS7. I am just saying that I had a 69 Camaro with a 427 in it about 10 years ago that was naturally aspirated (with a little juice) that I drove to the track and ran low 10's all day long and I only had about $11K on mods over the additional stock engine. I drove the car home at the end of the night (after swapping tires) and did it again the next week. I did this for almost 3 years without much other than changing the oil and refilling the bottle. I would find it hard to believe an LS7 could take that kind of a beating with little to no maintenance and for just over $11K in mods over the stock car.

Maybe I am wrong but I see a lot of guys over on the vette forum having issue with the LS7 when the slam it hard on a strip or even abuse it regularly on a course without lots of preventative maintenance.

[90503]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

Not going to argue with you because you points are valid for a stock LS7 versus a stock ZL1 back in the day relative to stats but that is not what I was getting at with my post.

I don't care about mpg, emissions, or daily drivability. IF I did, I would LOVE the LS7. I am just saying that I had a 69 Camaro with a 427 in it about 10 years ago that was naturally aspirated (with a little juice) that I drove to the track and ran low 10's all day long and I only had about $11K on mods over the additional stock engine. I drove the car home at the end of the night (after swapping tires) and did it again the next week. I did this for almost 3 years without much other than changing the oil and refilling the bottle. I would find it hard to believe an LS7 could take that kind of a beating with little to no maintenance and for just over $11K in mods over the stock car.

Maybe I am wrong but I see a lot of guys over on the vette forum having issue with the LS7 when the slam it hard on a strip or even abuse it regularly on a course without lots of preventative maintenance.

...Fun topic/comparison....(I gave up trying to do my own tune-ups and mods when they went with electronic ignitions and started doing smog checks...lol...)

...Sort of a lot of terminology similarities and ironys....the LS7 is a 427, but not a big block...ZL-1 was an aluminum big block, but for the drags only, not road racing....First z/28s had 305 cast iron small blocks for track and weight purposes....The LS7 is an aluminum block for the road-coarse, not drag races for the new Z/28...lol....all good...

[Chris@Livernois]

Personally I see no reason why we couldn't make the Z28 just as powerful as some of C6Z06's that we build.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

10) You like the look of the car
9) You like the capabilities of the car...HPDE = HEHEHE!
8) You like the relative uniqueness of the car
7) You can afford one...or more...
6) You WANT one...or more...
5) You like the fact it can be legally street-driven, and insured for such
4) You still have room in your garage/basement/museum for one...or more...
3) "427 Camaro"...YUM!
2) "Carbon-Ceramic"...DUBBLE YUM!

And the NUMBER 1 REASON To Buy A Z/28:

1) Just to pi$$ off the fringe Doubting Thomases and Butt Hurtz on camaro5...

I like Number 3......................coincidence? I think not!

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Chris@Livernois

Personally I see no reason why we couldn't make the Z28 just as powerful as some of C6Z06's that we build.

There's your answer.

[backtotintops]

Originally Posted by Deki

If people are touting the Z28 as a HPDE or track day car, and not for any sanctioned racing at all, why spend 70K on it if all you want to do is go fast around a track and beat your own time? You can do it for a lot less money, with a lot lighter platform, with a much better suspension if you don't care about being within rules of any race organization.

I would like to know what car Dekl thinks is going to best it for under 70k?

thepill and all these pony car folks are pretty funny on that site.

This car is going to hammer the zo6 and likely anything it comes across. A "better suspension"...wink wink.

The good folks at NASA Northeast WILL find a place for it if you want to cage it and race it.

And no pill, I didn't move up to racing from hpde...I moved across to hpde from racing and I will run this on the street THOUSANDS of miles and track it hard and will feel very comfortable in it compared to my last 2 cars...keep up yer bitchin it's fun to read!!!

and the poster who said "inside info" over 70k will not post any link as expected but I think it will be higher when you see the ring time and the big bowl of crow many will be eating. I can only hope to get one.

why are there so many threads and excitement???...because some are happy and some are scared it is likely to set the bar very high for ford and srt.

"We have never built ANYTHING as mean as this!!!"...if this is a true quote from a GM engineer...well well well.