HPDE/road course guys...question for ya?

[tadams72]

Originally Posted by Phat Ralph

Has anyone overfilled their motor oil capicity, say by a 1/2 to 1 quart to protect against any oil starvation issues? I know this also helps with the Corvette LS3 stavitation issues they see. May be some added insurance plus reduce some heat by added volume.

Later
Ralph

Well that helps to an extent but you run the risk of aerating the oil from the crank couter-weights if it is too full which isn't a good thing either. Definitely want to ensure you are at the full mark. I go an extra 1/2 quart usually but probably wouldn't go too much more. Can't say for sure what is safe.

Either way you still have issues to contend with depending on how hard you drive. From the sounds of it, Bull isn't going to be driving miss daisy...

On another note, what tire and rim combo qre you running? Thinking about dropping to 18's on my car. Thanks.

Travis

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by speedmon

I think the critical decision revolves around the type of monthly "trackday" driving you are going to do.

If you are going to the twisty track to tootle around in the yellow group and show folks your equipment in the pits you'll probably be fine without a sump.

But if you're gonna put some sticky tires on that beast and pull > 1G 8-10 times a lap and "drive the lugnuts off" then consider the following.....

You haven't seen camaros with this problem because among "amatuer" club racers, the camaro isn't really a popular platform....too heavy and lacks the specialized equipment.....I drive a Z06 and I'm the only one in the past few years who has shown up with a camaro to test. So your not seeing the issue in your research because the data simply isn't there.....it doesn't mean the risk isn't there.

THIS.

The reason we aren't seeing the amount of oil starvation issues with the Camaro on track compared to the Corvette is that the sample set of folks REALLY driving the wheels off the Camaro is VERY small compared to the Corvette. Street tire track days definitely aren't going to push the oiling system past it's capabilities to adequately keep parts lubricated. Throw an R compound tire into the mix and you've got a scenario similar to the Corvette... it's a possibility that you could see issues, but you really do need to be seeing very high cornering loads repeatedly over a pretty good duration of time before you see problems. Some tracks are worse for oiling systems than others.

Lets be honest here... oil starvation is a concern with the Corvette when very aggressively driven on track and it's absolutely worth taking steps to avoid because the results can be so catastrophic, but the sky is not falling.

We haven't taken a hard look at this for Camaro because we ran an LS9 "dry" sump on our RingSpec Camaro build, but it's very likely that the deeper Camaro LS3 pan is pretty beneficial in keeping the oil volume around the pickup where it should be. We would also recommend running the car 1/2 or 1 quart high on track, that way when there is a significant oil volume in the head you will still end up with an artificially high oil volume at the pan to keep the pickup in the oil where it should be. Worst case scenario when running a little more oil is that you run the chance of ingesting a little oil into the intake and smoking on track until it's been burned off.

If you're building a race car with a built high dollar motor it's relatively cheap insurance to run a setup like Accusump or a full dry sump like ARE. Spend the extra cash to keep your 10,000 dollar engine happy over the long haul... but if you're a factory engined track day guy running street tires just go out there and have a great time with the car, the likelihood you run through anything but brake pads and tires is very slim.

[BullF-16]

Originally Posted by speedmon

I think the critical decision revolves around the type of monthly "trackday" driving you are going to do..

I just want to take it out a few times a year maybe more to Eagles Canyon Raceway. I just found out about it and its only an hour and a half away. Just want to get it out on the track and let it stretch its legs. Plan on the Bridgestone RE-11 Potenzas that the Pedder Camaro was running.

Originally Posted by tadams72

Like SPEEDMON talked about, the reason we have not heard much about failed LS3's in Camaros might be attributed to the number of Camaros that are running that hard.

Lifter trays never even crossed my mind. I'll have to research it a little more.

Travis

I know the Pedders Camaro ran pretty hard with no issues. The only thing they apparently did to the oiling was run a large cooler with it.

As for lifter trays, this is apparently where oil gets trapped in long left hand turns > 1.0G and holding that turn longer than about 4 seconds. Looks like a partial solution is drilling 1/2 inch holes in the lifter trays to aid in getting the oil back down.....my motor/Mast heads do not run the lifter trays

Originally Posted by speedmon

Well said Tadams......

F16.... don't ya just hate vette guys....we're just so opinionated...

Yea, i made this same thread over on Corvette Forum under the tracking section and got slammed for running an after market blower I told them its just a fun street car that will see very limited novice driving at best....my goals were just to take it out and have a little fun. They all pretty much said my motor was going to grenade in the first turn unless i ran a dedicated dry sump setup....my response was "thanks guys, i wll only drive it around the block for fear of blowing up" I asked the wrong group I guess. Im getting much better info here.

[BullF-16]

Originally Posted by PfadtRacing

THIS.

The reason we aren't seeing the amount of oil starvation issues with the Camaro on track compared to the Corvette is that the sample set of folks REALLY driving the wheels off the Camaro is VERY small compared to the Corvette. Street tire track days definitely aren't going to push the oiling system past it's capabilities to adequately keep parts lubricated. Throw an R compound tire into the mix and you've got a scenario similar to the Corvette... it's a possibility that you could see issues, but you really do need to be seeing very high cornering loads repeatedly over a pretty good duration of time before you see problems. Some tracks are worse for oiling systems than others.

Lets be honest here... oil starvation is a concern with the Corvette when very aggressively driven on track and it's absolutely worth taking steps to avoid because the results can be so catastrophic, but the sky is not falling.

We haven't taken a hard look at this for Camaro because we ran an LS9 "dry" sump on our RingSpec Camaro build, but it's very likely that the deeper Camaro LS3 pan is pretty beneficial in keeping the oil volume around the pickup where it should be. We would also recommend running the car 1/2 or 1 quart high on track, that way when there is a significant oil volume in the head you will still end up with an artificially high oil volume at the pan to keep the pickup in the oil where it should be. Worst case scenario when running a little more oil is that you run the chance of ingesting a little oil into the intake and smoking on track until it's been burned off.

If you're building a race car with a built high dollar motor it's relatively cheap insurance to run a setup like Accusump or a full dry sump like ARE. Spend the extra cash to keep your 10,000 dollar engine happy over the long haul... but if you're a factory engined track day guy running street tires just go out there and have a great time with the car, the likelihood you run through anything but brake pads and tires is very slim.

$10,000 bucks I wish. Its quite a bit north of that just for the long block. the fuel system alone is over 3 grand. Im gonna call HKE and talk to Erik about his thoughts on drysump. I know he has build a bunch of motors for the corvette road racers.

I have also received a few PMs for a few guys that hang in the California section....seems they road race quite a bit. and PyrObOy has a very similar setup to mine and he has been on the road course a bunch with no issues.

I will just add a nice aftermarket cooler, a quality oil press gauge and oil temp gauge and take it out and see what happens. I will have my sleeved/forged LS3 short block standing by for the just in case.

Keep it coming guys, I think we are all learning something here.

[Phat Ralph]

Originally Posted by tadams72

On another note, what tire and rim combo qre you running? Thinking about dropping to 18's on my car. Thanks.

Travis

I am running TSW 18x9.5 wheels with Nitto NT01's 275/40 tires on all four corners. They really perform well.

One thing I can say is I really push the car hard on the track. No starvation issues as of yet but not running R compound tires either. But I do see forces in the 1.2g range. Water temps as high as 241 and oil temps 300+. In a 20-30 minute session it is all she can do....I have felt the motor nose over at 5000rpm's from running hot. Looking at a large oil cooler and a aluminum radiator. But also tracking a car in 100+ degree heat also takes its toll in other areas, like I just found out. The outer half shaft CV boots can not handle the heat. Mine are seeping grease out from the boot band because the grease becomes liquified. Not good. There was not a drop of greese on my track wheels but after changing the wheels and driving 2 hours home both factory wheels had grease on them.



Here is a video of me driving at CMP. Pushing the Camaro as hard as I could push.....

[BullF-16]

Ralph, thank for posting this....this is exactly the info i was looking for. This is all i want to do with my car. Run it on Eagles Canyon at the monthly track days. I have similar Pedders suspension as you, see sig line, and i run the Bridgestone 305/30 R19s on all corners. I wll have the CTS-V brakes and ZL1 rotors after the new motor goes in. Then i have to ride with a track instructor for a day to show im not a complete buffoon. Is this video of the "yellow group" i have been reading references about in this thread? Sorry, i am a complete newb to running on the road course.

Like Justice Pete said to me, just add a big oil cooler and have fun...Looks like maybe a better radiator also.

[Phat Ralph]

Originally Posted by BullF-16

Then i have to ride with a track instructor for a day to show im not a complete buffoon. Is this video of the "yellow group" i have been reading references about in this thread?

I run in NASA and with Turn1 and run in a SOLO run group with no instuctor. This groups requires a point by either side and anywhere on the track. The next level is no point by required! NASA and Turn1 do not use colors for there run groups. I am doing a PCA event in September and in a white run group with them. They use green, blue, white and black is the one with the most experience. But all in all it is all about seat time. I try to do one track day a month!

Later
Ralph

[speedmon]

Phat! (cool name)

Nice vid......nice turn ins....good patience with the GTR....pressed into a point by.

Were those your sway bars sqeaking? (LOL)

...And Dewitts makes a high capacity rad with an integrated cooler....not that much $$ either.

[tadams72]

Originally Posted by speedmon

Phat! (cool name)

Nice vid......nice turn ins....good patience with the GTR....pressed into a point by.

Were those your sway bars sqeaking? (LOL)

...And Dewitts makes a high capacity rad with an integrated cooler....not that much $$ either.

Do tell, about the radiator. Thanks.

Travis

[tadams72]

Well as long as we are posting HPDE videos I guess I will throw in here.

This is from Chuckwalla Valley Raceway about 50 miles outside Palm Springs early this year. Came in new with a capable car but did not use a driver coach and just picked my way around the track trying to find the best lines. Day went ok as my times were middle of the pack of some very capable cars. Definitely could have done better with a good coach to work the track with first. Lots of Lotus' on the track that day and they frustrated the hell out of me. They don't accelerate all that great but they are light and corner like crazy. I would pull them on the straights to a good gap but by the time I exited the next corner they were right on my ass again. Speeds on this track were sweepers in the 60's and the two long straights pegging the rev limter in 3rd at 118 mph. Good lesson in the limitation of a high hp car that weighs two tons. Still had a blast and came out tops in the Pony Car Division.



This is from Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch just north of Las Vegas. My favorite track so far. Also the location for the Ron Fellows Corvette Driving School. Awesome track with many configurations. This was the 3.1 mile loop that incorporated some blind approaches at speed and really fun bus stops. This was a two day event so I had a driver/coach the first day to help me learn the track. Lance was very versed and capable despite being every bit of 70 something this guy could drive the wheels of anything. That being said by day two I was promoted to the mixed intermediate/advanced group from which this video was taken. As you can see my Vengeance Racing Powered/Pfadt Racing Suspended pig of a Camaro held it's own in a group of what would have been considered much more capable cars. Anyhow, speeds on this track were sweepers at around 70 mph, hair pins much less, and straights as much as 130 mph.



Did I mention how much fun it is to see the look of the Corvette, Porsche, and other owners when they have to do a point by on a muscle car! Seriously though I have to give much respect because all my track day partners are Vette drivers and several of them spank me. (Full Disclosure)

Now I just have to figure out how to shoot that high tech video with the track layout and accellerometer to show the G's!

To keep somewhat on target of the thread, really thinking Accusump, oil cooler, or perhaps the DeWitt radiator SPEEDMON was talking about. Of course this car is still on stock Pirellis so new tires are a must. Leaning toward taking my DR's off the 18x10 Forgestar F14's and getting another set for the front to run 18x10's all the way around on a NT01 or R888 tire. Thoughts from the group? Thanks.

Travis

[Phat Ralph]

Originally Posted by speedmon

Were those your sway bars sqeaking? (LOL)

LOL! I wish it was the sways I could fix that....That is my seat creaking! I am big boned, 300#! It is hard to fix my weight.....

Want more information on the Dewitts Coolers?????

Later
Ralph

[Phat Ralph]

Originally Posted by tadams72

Did I mention how much fun it is to see the look of the Corvette, Porsche, and other owners when they have to do a point by on a muscle car! Seriously though I have to give much respect because all my track day partners are Vette drivers and several of them spank me. (Full Disclosure)

Now I just have to figure out how to shoot that high tech video with the track layout and accellerometer to show the G's!

To keep somewhat on target of the thread, really thinking Accusump, oil cooler, or perhaps the DeWitt radiator SPEEDMON was talking about. Of course this car is still on stock Pirellis so new tires are a must. Leaning toward taking my DR's off the 18x10 Forgestar F14's and getting another set for the front to run 18x10's all the way around on a NT01 or R888 tire. Thoughts from the group? Thanks.

Travis

Nice Videos! It is fun to pass a Vette, Porsche, GT-R, etc.....

aDyno/aLaptimer is what I use on my Droid phone. Works well and provides all information.

I agree about on target, sorry I derailed us.........

I am looking at the Setrab 625 cooler. This is what a lot of vette guys use. You need to custom fab some brackets and such. Not a big deal.....Also looking at the CSF radiator to keep her cool!

As for tires I went small. To save dollars!!!!!! You go through some sticky tires pretty fast. I am able to do about 25, 20 minute sessions before I need new rubber. Just remember the bigger the tire the more cost for those trackdays. Currently I can get NT01's for $260-$280.

But want to know more about anything to keep these Camaro's cool and so they do not starv.........

Later
Ralph

[BullF-16]

Wow, i cant believe my eyes. You guys are all driving fairly hard and your motors aren't grenading on the first turn! Encouraging!

[ericedelman]

To add my $0.02 to the thread: speedmon and the gentleman from pfadt are correct, there is simply limited data available for this car on the track.

I have 3 seasons and around 12,000 or 14,000 track miles on my 2010 (my logbook skills are not that great), and in the NASA northeast region, there is one other Camaro running in the advanced run groups (with the TT guys and the instructors). I have not seen any 2010+ cars running American Iron, Camaro-Mustang Challenge, or American Iron Extreme in our region.

The answer is still, for a DE event on street tires, you will probably be fine. Once you do one or two events, you'll realize you're not really racing anyone, and you'll go out and have a good time. Or, you'll become a track rat and buy a Miata or a C5 that you can flog at the track and trailer home. Most people don't take things to the track that aren't disposable (or at least disposable to them).