Camaro Still winning - Mustang sales not enough to sustain Flat Rock plant

[SSBUSDRVR]

They didn't. You think 10,000 less Mustang sales is going to send Ford into bankruptcy?

Nope but just get sick and tired of hearing about the term bailouts.Yeah it's a sore point left for discussion in another board.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by AUS10BMX

This body style was absolutely hideous...
Attachment 254211

This body style is a million times better, and I like it...
Attachment 254212

Like most say, the front end looks good, but the rest of the car doesn't have much going for it. I can stand back and look at my car, and our 5th Gens have so many good body lines all through out! The Mustang cannot touch that...

Its the same body ...

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by NicolasKL

It's the same platform, it's not the same body style.

And I agree with AUS10, I like the 2010+ a LOT more than the 05-09, and the 2010+ Shelby styling even moreso.

Near as I can tell, the doors are the same, the fenders are the same, the roof is the same ... sure the fascia & hood are different but the actual body of the car looks the same to me.

[28.]

Only thing thats same is the roof.. Everything else is different. Might look the same but it isnt..

[doc7000]

Originally Posted by 28.

Only thing thats same is the roof.. Everything else is different. Might look the same but it isnt..

I always thought too that pretty much every body panel on the car was new (well with exception being the roof).

In many ways this is much like how the C6 was stated by some to be a C5.5 instead of a C6.

I think the main reason though why the Corvette got away with this and the Mustang didn't is because the Corvette lacks a true competitor. Yes it some what competes with other models but nothing to compare to head on.

I do think that what it comes down to is the Camaro just has a much more modern feel to it. Which is likely pulling in buyers who would otherwise not look at either the Camaro or the Mustang.

I think that the Dodge Challengers biggest sales issue (though I don't think they intended it to compete directly) is that it really only appeals to a small niche market.

I guess the real lesson here is how important exterior styling really is when it comes to sales, both cars are good cars and yet the sales gap has increased to over 10,000 units and that is with cash on the hood of the Mustang. If that cash wasn't there one would have to ask themselves what difference that would also have made for the Mustang.

I bet that exterior styling is number one for the next generation Mustang.

[thePill]

To be 100% truthful, neither of the pony cars sales are very good. This is the downfall of the entire pony car market and the only thing that will save them is a 4 cylinder option. This sales of the S197 are not going to get any better, Ford will sustain sales as much as possible in 2013 but don't expect a huge increase. Challenger and Camaro sales will begin to fall (Challenger has never really been that good) and since they are the newest models, they will suffer the most. Whether your selling 6000 or 9000, both those numbers are almost at the point of extinction... This was my point before, all three are kinda fighting over scraps. The last one to an Eco4 is a rotten egg...

As for Mazda moving out, this makes enough room to make right hand drive Mustang's if you ask me... I don't know how Ford could pull that off without a separate line.

[snakekiller]

Originally Posted by thePill

To be 100% truthful, neither of the pony cars sales are very good. This is the downfall of the entire pony car market and the only thing that will save them is a 4 cylinder option. This sales of the S197 are not going to get any better, Ford will sustain sales as much as possible in 2013 but don't expect a huge increase. Challenger and Camaro sales will begin to fall (Challenger has never really been that good) and since they are the newest models, they will suffer the most. Whether your selling 6000 or 9000, both those numbers are almost at the point of extinction... This was my point before, all three are kinda fighting over scraps. The last one to an Eco4 is a rotten egg...

As for Mazda moving out, this makes enough room to make right hand drive Mustang's if you ask me... I don't know how Ford could pull that off without a separate line.

i would't call it a such, but 4 cylinders will definitely help.

[doc7000]

Originally Posted by thePill

To be 100% truthful, neither of the pony cars sales are very good. This is the downfall of the entire pony car market and the only thing that will save them is a 4 cylinder option. This sales of the S197 are not going to get any better, Ford will sustain sales as much as possible in 2013 but don't expect a huge increase. Challenger and Camaro sales will begin to fall (Challenger has never really been that good) and since they are the newest models, they will suffer the most. Whether your selling 6000 or 9000, both those numbers are almost at the point of extinction... This was my point before, all three are kinda fighting over scraps. The last one to an Eco4 is a rotten egg...

As for Mazda moving out, this makes enough room to make right hand drive Mustang's if you ask me... I don't know how Ford could pull that off without a separate line.

I would have to disagree with you on this one, considering that the Camaro sold more then 10,000 units in a month two months ago.

The entire auto market is down, when the Mustang was selling 150,000+ a year the auto market was at 18,000,000+/-. So while the auto market is at 12,000,000 (down 33%) and yes not every segment has been hit the same. Still the Camaro has been averaging 8,000-9,000 units per month which at the current rate would equate to 108,000 units a year. Not to mention to expand over that point they would have to expand the Camaro line.

I also have to completely disagree with the notion that a I-4 turbo is needed to save this market segment. In a sporty vehicle a I-4 turbo I don't see improving the fuel economy of these cars by much anyways maybe 1-2MPG on the highway.

A sporty 2+2 is a personal stylish vehicle and that is what they need to focus on in order to survive. The fact that the V-6 Mustang and V-6 Camaro get better fuel economy then the FWD V-6 Accord coupe and V-6 Altima coupe shouldn't be ignored.

We have to remember that being American you do have a certain % of the market that won't even look at them. They really should focus on that group of individuals to bring them back into the domestic market. Then who would want a non sporty sporty personal stylish car like a Accord coupe and Nissan Altima coupe. Who wants to spend more money and get a slower car that gets lower fuel economy?

[thePill]

Originally Posted by doc7000

I would have to disagree with you on this one, considering that the Camaro sold more then 10,000 units in a month two months ago.

The entire auto market is down, when the Mustang was selling 150,000+ a year the auto market was at 18,000,000+/-. So while the auto market is at 12,000,000 (down 33%) and yes not every segment has been hit the same. Still the Camaro has been averaging 8,000-9,000 units per month which at the current rate would equate to 108,000 units a year. Not to mention to expand over that point they would have to expand the Camaro line.

I also have to completely disagree with the notion that a I-4 turbo is needed to save this market segment. In a sporty vehicle a I-4 turbo I don't see improving the fuel economy of these cars by much anyways maybe 1-2MPG on the highway.

A sporty 2+2 is a personal stylish vehicle and that is what they need to focus on in order to survive. The fact that the V-6 Mustang and V-6 Camaro get better fuel economy then the FWD V-6 Accord coupe and V-6 Altima coupe shouldn't be ignored.

We have to remember that being American you do have a certain % of the market that won't even look at them. They really should focus on that group of individuals to bring them back into the domestic market. Then who would want a non sporty sporty personal stylish car like a Accord coupe and Nissan Altima coupe. Who wants to spend more money and get a slower car that gets lower fuel economy?

Good points, and I hope it holds up. If you look at all three throughout the year, there is a terrible slump right after summer until spring the following year. The Camaro was leading at the end of last year with 5000-6000 units a month and that is pretty bad. The 4 cylinder will help dramatically but hopefully it comes pretty quick, the Mustang and Challenger have played every card they have and GM just laid down their last ace with the convertible (the ZL1 won't do anything to the sales numbers). Hopefully, with the reinvention of the pony car in 2014, the sales will take a turn for the better. As the sales stand today though and seeing that the Camaro is only 2 years into this generation, 9000 sales a month is alarming. If GM has plans to carry the 5th Gen on for another 5 years, sales will be at the Challengers level if not worse. Ford took advantage of the open market and really played this generation out, I doubt Ford's profit margin was as high as the Challenger's but since Ford is getting 10 years out of this Mustang, they probably have paid for the next gen in full. I wonder what is on the table for the next Challenger, I haven't heard anything yet...

The Camaro's prime was its first year, if it was available for a full 12 months it would have beat the 2nd years 90k. With the 4000-6000 units fall and winter, the sales will never be as high as it was during year one. It just doesn't work that way, never has and never will. The real test will be MY13, this is where the sales will take a big hit as it was with the Mustang and the Chally. By the 4th model year, sales will be cut because everyone who wanted one, has one...

Turbo 4's will be very successful overseas and I am glad that Mazda is leaving Flatrock because there is no way Ford can built a right hand drive Mustang on a left hand drive assembly line. Ford went to 1 shift in 2009 on the Mustang side but in its prime was capable of 18,000 units a month. With the demand in Australia alone, it will be impossible to meet demand...

[Kahdir]

Originally Posted by AUS10BMX

This body style was absolutely hideous...
Attachment 254211

This body style is a million times better, and I like it...
Attachment 254212

Like most say, the front end looks good, but the rest of the car doesn't have much going for it. I can stand back and look at my car, and our 5th Gens have so many good body lines all through out! The Mustang cannot touch that...

To each his/her own...





Loved the look of my '05 S197... even considered replacing it w/ an '11 after some girl textin' while driving wrecked it
The main thing I didn't like about the '11 were the candy cane tail lights...

Considering the trouble Ford had delivering my car, it's no surprise to me they're having trouble selling cars.

[doc7000]

Originally Posted by thePill

Good points, and I hope it holds up. If you look at all three throughout the year, there is a terrible slump right after summer until spring the following year. The Camaro was leading at the end of last year with 5000-6000 units a month and that is pretty bad. The 4 cylinder will help dramatically but hopefully it comes pretty quick, the Mustang and Challenger have played every card they have and GM just laid down their last ace with the convertible (the ZL1 won't do anything to the sales numbers). Hopefully, with the reinvention of the pony car in 2014, the sales will take a turn for the better. As the sales stand today though and seeing that the Camaro is only 2 years into this generation, 9000 sales a month is alarming. If GM has plans to carry the 5th Gen on for another 5 years, sales will be at the Challengers level if not worse. Ford took advantage of the open market and really played this generation out, I doubt Ford's profit margin was as high as the Challenger's but since Ford is getting 10 years out of this Mustang, they probably have paid for the next gen in full. I wonder what is on the table for the next Challenger, I haven't heard anything yet...

The Camaro's prime was its first year, if it was available for a full 12 months it would have beat the 2nd years 90k. With the 4000-6000 units fall and winter, the sales will never be as high as it was during year one. It just doesn't work that way, never has and never will. The real test will be MY13, this is where the sales will take a big hit as it was with the Mustang and the Chally. By the 4th model year, sales will be cut because everyone who wanted one, has one...

Turbo 4's will be very successful overseas and I am glad that Mazda is leaving Flatrock because there is no way Ford can built a right hand drive Mustang on a left hand drive assembly line. Ford went to 1 shift in 2009 on the Mustang side but in its prime was capable of 18,000 units a month. With the demand in Australia alone, it will be impossible to meet demand...

Some market segments are more seasonal as in they sell differently during different times of the year. You won't sell too many of these cars in snow areas during winter for obvious reasons.

Though I do agree that I-4 engines would do really well in over seas markets especially markets which tax based on engine sizes. In those markets a 300BHP small displacement I-4 engine might sell better then a 300BHP NA V-6 engine due to a lower price (because of the tax). Right hand driver is a factor as well as tuning, both cars should have a more sporty suspension tune in Europe then in the US. Where as the average American consumer would want a more comfortable ride (even in a sporty car) European consumers tend to like things a bit more sporty. Maybe make the track pack standard on Mustangs sold in Europe for example.

[AUS10BMX]

Originally Posted by Kahdir

To each his/her own...





Loved the look of my '05 S197... even considered replacing it w/ an '11 after some girl textin' while driving wrecked it
The main thing I didn't like about the '11 were the candy cane tail lights...

Considering the trouble Ford had delivering my car, it's no surprise to me they're having trouble selling cars.

It just always bothered me when they went to that body style that it was so flat and had no lines to follow. If you took off the curve of the roof, the car was just like a rectangle.

My favorite was my friends 1999 Saleen S351, that was a bad ass car.

I'm just glad to see that the new body style or whatever people wanna call it does have a little better shape and sportier look.

At the end of they day I don't wanna see anyone struggle with sells. I'm glad to see everyone pushing the limits with these cars again.

[Number 3]

First off, the Camaro is selling very well. What defines very well isn't a number that we as customers view, but what was planned for to establish the business case and success of the program. In the case of the Camaro, it is selling very well even after a long 2010 run and 2011. With 2012, the Camaro will add significant improvements and the ZL1 that should maintain those volumes.

Ford? I don't know what they wanted to be selling. They've put money into the car to keep it fresh and added new powertrains, but those engines are available in other models including the Full Size Pickup (the biggest reason Ford is doing so well, btw). Maybe they are a bit low in their own volumes.

The problem here is that it is difficult to keep a plant running efficiently on 80 to 100,000 units unless you made the plant that small in the first place.

The Corvette does just fine in Bowling Green Kentucky, for example, on very low volumes.

The Camaro has an advantage of being built in Oshawa where there are also other products being built. Check out the pictures from the even last weekend..............there are Buick Regals in some of the photos.

So Ford simply has to either A) put a new product in Flat Rock to replace the Mazda 6, or B) move the Mustang to another plant where they have space.

I'm betting the Mustang is at least mildly profitable for Ford. The only problem is they can't justify that huge plant on one car.

Me, as a Michigander, hope that Ford simply adds another product to the mix in Flat Rock.

But as I've suggested in other posts, if Ford is doing an all NEW Mustang in 2014 or so wth a new underbody and chassis, they would have to have plans for a sedan or something to share that expense. A RWD Lincoln perhaps? I don't know. And if that is the case, maybe Ford wanted Mazda to leave.

So this nothing to worry about for Ford, just maybe the workers at Flat Rock. And generally they will have transfer rights to other Ford facilities if they choose to not keep it open.

[Enator]

And what about 2014 Mustamaro LOL