Congress to fine hackers (what does this mean for modding?)

[guerrillakilla13]

http://qz.com/526908/congress-is-mul...y-own-the-car/

Does this mean tuning will become a thing of the past? I know they said "unauthorized access", but that could mean GM has the final word on if they'd allow us to mod our cars. So then what'll this do to Camaro modding in general? Input :P

I remember reading awhile back that GM wanted to put in a system that prevents people from modding their (I mean OUR) cars. Maybe this is just the beginning.

Maybe someone can help me interpret the article correctly.

[Trickskier]

Hard to interpret what thier intent is. But if passed just another step towards socialism and taking our freedoms away. I don't understand how the auto industry can say we don't own our own cars???

Donald Trump says he will limit the EPA's authority if elected because they do more harm than good.....

[EFI]

I don't understand how the auto industry can say we don't own our own cars???

You own the car itself, but the engine and other components run on software that is proprietary to GM. It's like your computer, you own the hardware but the operating system is owned by Microsoft for example and you just have a license to use it. Or in the case of MS Office...you don't actually own it even though it's installed on your computer, it's owned by Microsoft and you just get to use it.

The same way goes for cars, you own the metal and plastic but as far as the software itself you don't own it, GM does, you just have a license to use it. If you mess with it, GM can have a say in that.

[Dark_Horse]

Originally Posted by EFI

You own the car itself, but the engine and other components run on software that is proprietary to GM. It's like your computer, you own the hardware but the operating system is owned by Microsoft for example and you just have a license to use it. Or in the case of MS Office...you don't actually own it even though it's installed on your computer, it's owned by Microsoft and you just get to use it.

As an IT guy I 100% understand and agree with what you said. However, with computers, you retain the ability to change the operating system and software to whatever you choose, whether that be to upgrade to a new version of Windows, install Linux like I do, or any combination of the options out there. The same should also be said for cars because, essentially, the argument is that you shouldn't be able to modify the software running the cars computer.

This is not correct if you own the hardware and flash custom software to that hardware, like you do with a tune. It is a modified version of the original software. It is similar but ultimately different in that it causes the drivetrain to function differently than originally inteded by the manufacturer. This is going to be a HUGE uphill battle for car manufacturers and IF they manage to make this go through I doubt it will be widely enforced. Performance and aftermarket parts are a multi billion dollar industry that ultimately support the auto industry and it wouldn't be in the automakers best interests to force people away from it.

[kalimus]

Originally Posted by Dark_Horse

As an IT guy I 100% understand and agree with what you said. However, with computers, you retain the ability to change the operating system and software to whatever you choose, whether that be to upgrade to a new version of Windows, install Linux like I do, or any combination of the options out there. The same should also be said for cars because, essentially, the argument is that you shouldn't be able to modify the software running the cars computer.

This is not correct if you own the hardware and flash custom software to that hardware, like you do with a tune. It is a modified version of the original software. It is similar but ultimately different in that it causes the drivetrain to function differently than originally inteded by the manufacturer. This is going to be a HUGE uphill battle for car manufacturers and IF they manage to make this go through I doubt it will be widely enforced. Performance and aftermarket parts are a multi billion dollar industry that ultimately support the auto industry and it wouldn't be in the automakers best interests to force people away from it.

Exactly. With software that you purchase, even though you are purchasing the license, you may edit and change that software in any way you wish. With Windows for example, you can edit the registry, tell which services to start/not start, or deactivate ones that you wish. You can even turn off updates that Microsoft says you need. If you do, Microsoft may not offer support much in the same way that GM may not honor your warranty.

[Donald]

Theoretically, if it does pass does that mean a stand-alone EMS bypasses the law? If so I'd say Megasquirt, Haltech, etc companies will see a serious boon...

[el ess A]

Originally Posted by EFI

The same way goes for cars, you own the metal and plastic but as far as the software itself you don't own it, GM does, you just have a license to use it. If you mess with it, GM can have a say in that.

So if I decide to use someone else's software, I can, since I own the "hardware" that the software runs on, by your supposition. Just like my computer. I can see some IT startups raking in $$ in the aftermarket. Why just "tune" when you can just replace the software altogether? Like toss out the Windows when you can run, say, Linux, if you so choose?

The ownership of hardware trumps the ownership of software, provided there are other sources of software available. And if they lay claim to the computer itself, then swap out the computer. There will be a junction of where they do not own that part of the car and you can get where you want to go.

You cannot stop a hot rodder if they want to mod. You just can't.

[Dark_Horse]

The problem they run in to is that they cannot lay claim to the hardware as you technically paid for that and have possession of it. The ONLY claim they have is on the software. Since, as mentioned above, you are only sold a licensed copy of that software and not the rights to it. I don't think you'll see tunes go away as major tuning companies rebuild the software used by the manufacturer from the ground up and redesign the way the car runs. That being said it would mean some law suits to get things hammered out in court but a full tune that wipes out the factory tune is basically the same as changing the operating system on your computer. That's why the GVN that is generated by GM is what is used to determine if our cars have been tuned. Think of that as like the license key for your copy of Windows or Microsoft Office. If that number changes when you tune then you are using a different software on the system.

Of course we will also see the stand alone engine management systems become a popular option as well due to the law suits that will take months/years to figure out where lawmakers stand on it.

[EFI]

However, with computers, you retain the ability to change the operating system and software to whatever you choose, whether that be to upgrade to a new version of Windows, install Linux like I do, or any combination of the options out there. The same should also be said for cars because, essentially, the argument is that you shouldn't be able to modify the software running the cars computer.

Yes you're allowed to change it, noone is forcing you to use a certain piece of software. But you can't start messing with it, I bet if you tried to change the code of Windows 7 and start selling it off to people for a profit Microsoft won't exactly be happy.

It's the same way with cars, you're allowed to change it (if you can find some other software that will make your car run) but you're not allowed to alter the software itself (well at least they're trying to get to that point it's not there yet).

So if I decide to use someone else's software, I can, since I own the "hardware" that the software runs on, by your supposition. Just like my computer. I can see some IT startups raking in $$ in the aftermarket. Why just "tune" when you can just replace the software altogether? Like toss out the Windows when you can run, say, Linux, if you so choose?

Again, you can change it. Noone's stopping you from completely removing GM's software off your car and using something else. That's not what the issue it. The issue is with you keeping the GM software and altering it to your liking and/or possibly profiting off that by selling said changes to others.

You don't see these lawsuits or whatever going after FAST or other tuners of standalone engine management systems. These lawsuits are going after tuners that are changing GM's code and then selling it off for profit.

[Dark_Horse]

Originally Posted by EFI

Yes you're allowed to change it, noone is forcing you to use a certain piece of software. But you can't start messing with it, I bet if you tried to change the code of Windows 7 and start selling it off to people for a profit Microsoft won't exactly be happy.

No they wouldn't, but how do you think most game shops that build custom PC's for people make their money. They tweak the hardware and the OS and sell said system to their customers. They get away with that by not badging the OS as their own version of an OS and stating that it is a modified Windows install. The same COULD be done for tunes. Think back to the days of OBD1 cars where you had to swap chips. They didn't change the OS they were simply changing the paramaters the car used to run on the same OS. With OBD2 it is a bit different, although similar, so I doubt this would actually stand in court.

It's the same way with cars, you're allowed to change it (if you can find some other software that will make your car run) but you're not allowed to alter the software itself.

A lot of tuning software gives you access to the ecm but requires you to make the tune. The all in one tuners like Hypertech that make blanket tunes for every car are what you might be referring to here but true tuning is different for every vehicle similar to the example I gave of game shops custom tuning a gamming computer for a customer above.

You don't see these lawsuits or whatever going after FAST or other tuners of standalone engine management systems. These lawsuits are going after tuners that are changing GM's code and then selling it off for profit.

No they won't because FAST and other companies that make the EMS are using their own proprietary software that will completely erase that of the manufacturer. I believe that has already been tried and tested.

[Apex Motorsports]

Back in the spring I was up on Capitol Hill for some meetings and this topic came up in one of them. The feeling I got was that it was something the industry was pushing for but that there was not any interest in pursuing much less support for it. My understanding was that the motivation was not about keeping enthusiasts from tuning but to basically force you to use dealer service departments.

[EFI]

No they wouldn't, but how do you think most game shops that build custom PC's for people make their money.

They build them buy buying hardware separately and combining it with a license of Microsoft's Windows OS. They are not altering the code of Windows itself to do this, they just slap it all together much like OEMs like Dell or HP do. Nothing illegal about that since they are not doing anything to the OS itself.

Now if they were taking Microsoft's code for Windows, altering it to do something different and then selling it to people for profit I bet you anything Microsoft would have something to say about it. That's what these tuners are doing and what GM is trying to get them to stop. EFI or HPT or Diablosport basically take GM's code, alter it and sell it to consumers for a profit. A custom game shop does not take Microsoft's OS, alter it and then sell it as their own to people. They are just putting the shit together. It would be the same way kit car companies operate: they take the hard parts, put them together, slap on GM's software and go. That's differnet than what Diablosport for example does.

[Dark_Horse]

When you alter the registry of Windows or turn off services you are altering the operating system. Many companies do this for their customers when building a custom system in order to tweak it to fit thier needs. This is not any different than tuning with the systems that you mentioned. Now if you are buying software, like HP tuners, that only gives you ACCESS to the software no different than an registry edititor software that is available for Windows. The changes are up to you or whatever tuner you hire to change it for you.

[EFI]

When you alter the registry of Windows or turn off services you are altering the operating system. Many companies do this for their customers when building a custom system in order to tweak it to fit thier needs.

Yes but do you see these companies selling custom versions of Windows on their own? Because that's what tuner companies are doing, selling JUST the customized software for a profit.

I have never seen or been able to walk into a store and buy custom Dell/HP/ibuypower operating systems based on Windows, but I have seen for example custom Diablosport tunes based on GM code.

I don't agree with it, nor do I see thing going anywhere because as you pointed out there are lots of grey areas to consider. But that is what GM is going after: companies taking their software, customizing it, packaging it under their name and then selling it to customers. Just like Microsoft would go after a company that takes Windows, alters the code and then sells it on its own under a different name to customers.