Poll: Forged pistons & Rods in Z 28?

[derklug]

OK, I build engines for a living, and so I have a little bit of insight. Granted, the engines I build are diesels and have a bore that you can stick your head into, but I have worked in the automotive industry. For the SS, the 6.2 will only be modified by 10% of the buyers, tops. The Z-28, like the GT500, will be bought by two types. The keep it all original crowd that never takes it out, and the beat it to death and mod the hell out of it crowd. Since the split is 60-40, it is worth the cost and the NVH sacrifices to go with forged internals. On this project, GM needs to keep the bean-counters out of the engineering department. The car will be an icon, and even selling at a loss will be better than selling an inferior product.

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by Super83Z

Absolutely and grenading pistons should be at the top.



Stop guessing, again its apples to dogsh*t. What can break in a rear-end? Gears? Half-shafts? Relatively inexpensive to beef up compared to beefing up the pistons once the engine is together and running.

I am concerned about having to pull the engine and replace the pistons. That is a whole hell of a lot easier said than done. We're talking taking off the intake, heads, oil pan.....................its almost broken down to just a block. You can leave the crank and cam in. Which you might as well change the cam since your doing all this. That is MAJOR work. Never mind you should hone the block and probably need a machine shop to swap the pistons over the to the rods.

Taking apart a rear-end? I recently swapped rears in my 1999 z28 I had to swap axles, backing plates and all the brake parts over. I did it in a half a day for relatively low cost. Tearing down an engine is going to require a slew of new gaskets, piston rings(your not reusing them) and a ton of time.



The GT500 starts at $49K. The Z28 is probably going to be a little bit more. So its already in the low $50K department.

There is no excuse for Ford to offer a fully forged, supercharged engine at the $49K price point and for some reason GM can't do it for any less than $60K.

When you were typing that, it didn't seem off the wall to you?

You have to stop saying that is going to cost all this money to do it. Its not the case in any way at all. Ford is proving that over and over again.

I'm only guessing about the tq numbers because I'm lazy and didn't go look it up in the wiki. but I do remember reading that it was good for 650 lb ft tq. and yes it is cheaper, (coming from someone that has detonated a piston), to fix a rear end but it's still a pain. you don't know me obviously. I have blown an engine due to a leaned out motor. I know what it takes to get into the block just to see if it's even usable again. and I also know what it takes to build a car right if you don't want to brake anything else.

you still don't realize that this 5.4's (the engine in the gt500) r and d was paid for by the ford GT? it didn't have to be recertified. . .not like the engine you are talking about the Z having. that doesn't even exist yet. . .both the car and engine that you want. R and D will still have to be done or have been done on forged internals and who will end up with the cost? the buyer. sorry ford went for years with out really any improvements but price increases on their cars to offset the R and D on the newest cars. the people that paid for the 2010 mustang pretty much paid for the 5.0 with out getting the 5.0. just to offset the cost of the 5.0 in the mustang. . .sucks for them. maybe GM should do that increase the price of the SS so it lowers the cost of The Z28. . .or lowers the price increase to the 6th gen.

again like I said if GM can do it for the same price point as a GT500 i'm all for it. if it raises it to 60k or just under 60k they should say screw it. hell even if you looked at the poll you'll see I voted for forged. I'm all for it as long as it doesn't drastically increase the price. it's not a simple swap like you claim. that's all i'm saying and all I'm trying to get at.

[calbert1999]

Personally, I thnk the Z28 should be the most powerfull Camaro; If you don't want to pay the few extra bucks to have the LS9 with all the bells and whistles, then settle for an SS or lower model.
I don't have any issues paying extra to have an engine that I don't have to worry about if I want to apply mods at a later date.
Currently, with an SS I'm always asking the questions regarding the stock engine tolerances. Want to upgrade the CAM and apply artificial aspiration at a later date, know that most likely I may have to have to upgrade pistons, rods, heads just to make sure I don't blow the engine. My installer recommending no more than 7psi. if installing a SuperCharger, why? Cause' concerned will shred up the engine.
Considering the Camaro is like the PC in the PC vs Mac war; There are numerous options to modify the vehicle, it would be nice to know that straight from the manufacturer the guts, can handle the additional stresses when applying the mods. Right?

[Super83Z]

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

I'm only guessing about the tq numbers because I'm lazy and didn't go look it up in the wiki. but I do remember reading that it was good for 650 lb ft tq. and yes it is cheaper, (coming from someone that has detonated a piston), to fix a rear end but it's still a pain. you don't know me obviously. I have blown an engine due to a leaned out motor. I know what it takes to get into the block just to see if it's even usable again. and I also know what it takes to build a car right if you don't want to brake anything else.

Then we agree. The pistons need to be changed now.

you still don't realize that this 5.4's (the engine in the gt500) r and d was paid for by the ford GT? it didn't have to be recertified. . .not like the engine you are talking about the Z having. that doesn't even exist yet. . .both the car and engine that you want. R and D will still have to be done or have been done on forged internals and who will end up with the cost? the buyer. sorry ford went for years with out really any improvements but price increases on their cars to offset the R and D on the newest cars. the people that paid for the 2010 mustang pretty much paid for the 5.0 with out getting the 5.0. just to offset the cost of the 5.0 in the mustang. . .sucks for them. maybe GM should do that increase the price of the SS so it lowers the cost of The Z28. . .or lowers the price increase to the 6th gen.

Wrong! The 5.4 in the GT500 shares head castings(with some minor differences) with the Ford GT engine and thats about it. The original GT500(07-10) block was cast iron. The new one is aluminum(like the Ford GT). They have different camshafts, the GT has oil squirters, dual fuel injectors per cylinder and a dry sump, all of which are not in the GT500. So that is a different emission certification right there.

again like I said if GM can do it for the same price point as a GT500 i'm all for it. if it raises it to 60k or just under 60k they should say screw it. hell even if you looked at the poll you'll see I voted for forged. I'm all for it as long as it doesn't drastically increase the price. it's not a simple swap like you claim. that's all i'm saying and all I'm trying to get at.

So you just like to argue then? It is a simple swap when you are building the engine from scratch.

So again for a quick recap.

The Mustang GT500 offers:

HAND BUILT fully forged supercharged engine.
better interior(materials wise).
for $49K

The Z28 will offer(if you guys get your silly way):

production line not so forged supercharged engine.
lesser interior materials
for $50K+?

What a let down.

[BoostedX2]

Originally Posted by Super83Z

Then we agree. The pistons need to be changed now.



Wrong! The 5.4 in the GT500 shares head castings(with some minor differences) with the Ford GT engine and thats about it. The original GT500(07-10) block was cast iron. The new one is aluminum(like the Ford GT). They have different camshafts, the GT has oil squirters, dual fuel injectors per cylinder and a dry sump, all of which are not in the GT500. So that is a different emission certification right there.



So you just like to argue then? It is a simple swap when you are building the engine from scratch.

So again for a quick recap.

The Mustang GT500 offers:

HAND BUILT fully forged supercharged engine.
better interior(materials wise).
for $49K

The Z28 will offer(if you guys get your silly way):

production line not so forged supercharged engine.
lesser interior materials
for $50K+?

What a let down.

Agreed. The Z/28 should offer as much of an increase in Value over the GT500 as the Ss did over the GT in 2010. There is no reason to come to market with a vehicle that has a percieved value less than the gt500. GM--step up to the plate and make it right, or don't make it at all!!

[camaro692]

"Why is that? Ford is proving that it can penny-pinch in other areas of the car in order to have all that power."- radz28

You have to be kidding me! I havent posted on here much because I sold my Camaro and bought a GT500. There is no comparison. NONE. FORD builds such a better vehicle I even got a new F150 to replace my silverado. Do yourself a favor and NEVER drive a GT500, it will make you regret you purchasing a camaro. And the MOST of the rest of you, get real the z28 will be 51k starting up to 57k. QUIT comparing the camaro to the corvette! Camaro is a muscle car, Corvette is a two seat sports car. GM knows that is you want muscle you will buy the camaro so they will charge just as much as a Vette if need be. Also the LSA is a stout stock engine BUT will grenade quickly will the boost gets turned up. Fords hand built 4-valve 5.4 trumps any thing GM has

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by Super83Z

Then we agree. The pistons need to be changed now.



Wrong! The 5.4 in the GT500 shares head castings(with some minor differences) with the Ford GT engine and thats about it. The original GT500(07-10) block was cast iron. The new one is aluminum(like the Ford GT). They have different camshafts, the GT has oil squirters, dual fuel injectors per cylinder and a dry sump, all of which are not in the GT500. So that is a different emission certification right there.



So you just like to argue then? It is a simple swap when you are building the engine from scratch.

So again for a quick recap.

The Mustang GT500 offers:

HAND BUILT fully forged supercharged engine.
better interior(materials wise).
for $49K

The Z28 will offer(if you guys get your silly way):

production line not so forged supercharged engine.
lesser interior materials
for $50K+?

What a let down.

you do realize that this car doesn't exist and neither does an engine in this car. yes there are pictures with a sticker on that dash that says 6.2L SC A6. there was talk long ago of an ls8. something between the lsa and ls9. rumors had it killed off. but an engine that you want would fit nicely as an ls8. could they change what you are asking for and call it the ls8, yes. hell for all we know they could offer the lsa for far cheaper then the gt500. this is all speculation. no one has confirmed the lsa as the engine. but with what we know it's likely.

you are expecting the worst. I say we've been pretty well off since the camaro began production. seeing the people that have been involved with production from the beginning have done a good job so far. granted there are areas for improvement. and everyone has their view as to what it is. but like I said to others. keep the faith.


btw I only want the forged pistons because I know how I react to high power. I always want more. but I'm willing to replace them and even replace the super for a turbo setup.

and just because it's forged doesn't mean it's high quality. . .

[camaro692]

"For the SS, the 6.2 will only be modified by 10% of the buyers, tops."- derklug

WOW, just WOW. 10% DONT modify their cars. And probably 95% of GT500 owners do a pulley swap. Only costs 800 bucks to add 100hp. Try that in the non forged LSA. ka-boom. I cant believe GM isnt putting forged internals

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by camaro692

"For the SS, the 6.2 will only be modified by 10% of the buyers, tops."- derklug

WOW, just WOW. 10% DONT modify their cars. And probably 95% of GT500 owners do a pulley swap. Only costs 800 bucks to add 100hp. Try that in the non forged LSA. ka-boom. I cant believe GM isnt putting forged internals

the lsa is a caddy motor, designed to create less noise then what would be required from the camaro. also I'm willing to bet if I could get an extra 100 hp out of the charger on the lsa and a good tune there wouldn't be a ka-boom. more like a see your ass later. . .

a good tune goes a long ways.

[camaro692]

Ya a good tune does, but non forged internals dont like 13-14psi. More like saying see your ass later to your camaro as its towed away with a rod through the block. A GT500 only needs wider tires to own z28. Forget about the 2.9 whipple and 689 RWHP with street tune. Z28+ NON forged engine+ trying to catch GT500= EPIC FAIL

[Super83Z]

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

you do realize that this car doesn't exist and neither does an engine in this car. yes there are pictures with a sticker on that dash that says 6.2L SC A6. there was talk long ago of an ls8. something between the lsa and ls9. rumors had it killed off. but an engine that you want would fit nicely as an ls8. could they change what you are asking for and call it the ls8, yes. hell for all we know they could offer the lsa for far cheaper then the gt500. this is all speculation. no one has confirmed the lsa as the engine. but with what we know it's likely.

you are expecting the worst. I say we've been pretty well off since the camaro began production. seeing the people that have been involved with production from the beginning have done a good job so far. granted there are areas for improvement. and everyone has their view as to what it is. but like I said to others. keep the faith.


btw I only want the forged pistons because I know how I react to high power. I always want more. but I'm willing to replace them and even replace the super for a turbo setup.

and just because it's forged doesn't mean it's high quality. . .

Since you say you agree then your not making sense. Do you think we should wait until the cars are sitting in our driveways with a pile of piston shrapnel in the oil pan? Or make our case known to GM now? There is still plenty of time for them to do something about it if they haven't done it already.

Keeping your mouth shut will not do anything good. GM should want to make us, their possible future customers, happy.

Why should I spend $50k on their Achilles Heeled Z28 when I could just build one for way less? I am willing to spend but the product has to be right. GM needs to know now while changes can still be made.

[Super83Z]

Originally Posted by camaro692

Ya a good tune does, but non forged internals dont like 13-14psi. More like saying see your ass later to your camaro as its towed away with a rod through the block. A GT500 only needs wider tires to own z28. Forget about the 2.9 whipple and 689 RWHP with street tune. Z28+ NON forged engine+ trying to catch GT500= EPIC FAIL

I have been hoping some people with GT500s would chime in. Sitting back and staying quiet is a good way to end up disappointed.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Scarrzz

.
Just another consideration to throw into the mix here...

I really respect all of the mechanical knowledge that goes into building these cars at this level of performance and dependability. I also appreciate the car-lovers who work on and modify their own dream machines... especially the folks who know what they're doing to take their cars beyond what would be possible in a production vehicle.

But please consider that even those of us who don't take their cars apart in their garages and put them back together can be passionate about them.

Some of us, many of us, have knowledge sets that don't transfer to automotive/mechanical expertise. I wouldn't want an Air Traffic Controller to do brain surgery on me, or a Neurosurgeon to repair my car, etc.

Those of us who don't disassemble/reassemble engines for work or fun will have to use $$ for any changes we want to make or change professions to be a mechanic/automotive engineer.

As for myself, the 50k price point is at the upper limit of plausibility for me and I'd like to have the option of upping the horsepower later without worrying that a piston will go BOOM. That one critical component would make the difference between leaving a car stock, or making it my own.

Who knows, maybe GM wants us to leave the cars totally stock, where their components are balanced for durability. That way they can very rightfully brag about their engineering prowess.

But I don't feel like I've taken possession of a car until I've done something to make it uniquely mine...

There are so many variables in these questions. I just know what I want.

.

Though I do possess some mechanical ability, there are many things I'll be considering, but if I start with a good enough foundation, there's not going to be the need to spend the money to do more later.

Originally Posted by camaro692

"Why is that? Ford is proving that it can penny-pinch in other areas of the car in order to have all that power."- radz28

You have to be kidding me! I havent posted on here much because I sold my Camaro and bought a GT500. There is no comparison. NONE. FORD builds such a better vehicle I even got a new F150 to replace my silverado. Do yourself a favor and NEVER drive a GT500, it will make you regret you purchasing a camaro. And the MOST of the rest of you, get real the z28 will be 51k starting up to 57k. QUIT comparing the camaro to the corvette! Camaro is a muscle car, Corvette is a two seat sports car. GM knows that is you want muscle you will buy the camaro so they will charge just as much as a Vette if need be. Also the LSA is a stout stock engine BUT will grenade quickly will the boost gets turned up. Fords hand built 4-valve 5.4 trumps any thing GM has

Troll much? Maybe it's time you move onto GT500 forums then. I'm glad your happy with your choice. Too bad for Ford they couldn't keep the 550-horse GT in the running to get reemed by ZR1's 638 horses... I could care less about the upgrade potential in the 5.4, which I'm sure you'll bring up. It's a fair point. If it's so good, why didn't Ford just do that from the start for your beloved snake? Validation problems? I could care less. Go stir the pot somewhere else.

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

you do realize that this car doesn't exist and neither does an engine in this car. yes there are pictures with a sticker on that dash that says 6.2L SC A6. there was talk long ago of an ls8. something between the lsa and ls9. rumors had it killed off. but an engine that you want would fit nicely as an ls8. could they change what you are asking for and call it the ls8, yes. hell for all we know they could offer the lsa for far cheaper then the gt500. this is all speculation. no one has confirmed the lsa as the engine. but with what we know it's likely.

you are expecting the worst. I say we've been pretty well off since the camaro began production. seeing the people that have been involved with production from the beginning have done a good job so far. granted there are areas for improvement. and everyone has their view as to what it is. but like I said to others. keep the faith.

btw I only want the forged pistons because I know how I react to high power. I always want more. but I'm willing to replace them and even replace the super for a turbo setup.

and just because it's forged doesn't mean it's high quality. . .

We're talking to the wall

Originally Posted by camaro692

Ya a good tune does, but non forged internals dont like 13-14psi. More like saying see your ass later to your camaro as its towed away with a rod through the block. A GT500 only needs wider tires to own z28. Forget about the 2.9 whipple and 689 RWHP with street tune. Z28+ NON forged engine+ trying to catch GT500= EPIC FAIL

I'd recommend you reconsider your trolling...

Respectfully...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Super83Z

Why should I spend $50k on their Achilles Heeled Z28

What EXACTLY makes it an Achilles Heel?

I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading in here...I really can't. First word that comes to mind is "brainwashed"...but I don't know who did the washing.

There is no doubt that a forged piston will outlast an equal-quality hypereutectic one. But suddenly everyone's claiming that a factory-build, engineered, and tested engine with H/E pistons is going to just....up and die? Really?!