MPG for the Z28

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by lewylew

+1
Who cares about fuel economy? if you can afford the car you can afford the gas!

Like a friend of mine said that had a really nice Ferrari when someone asked him how much gas it burned: "Every drop I put in it!". His friend said "I'm glad I don't have to pay for that", my friend said "You don't!"
Clyde

[radz28]

Originally Posted by wildpaws

Like a friend of mine said that had a really nice Ferrari when someone asked him how much gas it burned: "Every drop I put in it!". His friend said "I'm glad I don't have to pay for that", my friend said "You don't!"
Clyde

[lbheat]

Originally Posted by bi11ymc

My driving habits yield:

2LT Manual 312HP - 16 city / 26 highway (stock)
2SS Auto 400HP - 15 city / 24 highway (stock)
2SS Auto 650HP - 14 city / 22 highway (highly modified)

Yup my SC 1SS gets 14-15 city....But only 18 highway, I gun it any chance I get

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by radz28

I don't even care, but I don't think it'll be worse than CTS-V. I'm a little suprised that mileage suffers as much as the EPA numbers state. I have seen many comments and statements that people have made about improvements in mileage, but I take them with a little grain of salt. With the bypass valves and more efficient SCs out there, I'd suspect there shouldn't be much of a loss if driving conservatively, but I can't comment either way.

I just know it's not going to sway my decision.

I would have to think they're working their behind's off to get a reasonable rating. GT500 has escaped the guzzler tax this year...if they can't get that, I'm sure it'll be very close.

And....Camaro IS slightly more aerodynamic than the CTS-V. But the Z may be getting super-wide tires (for a factory car, anyways)....so we'll see.

[OldJedi]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I would have to think they're working their behind's off to get a reasonable rating. GT500 has escaped the guzzler tax this year...if they can't get that, I'm sure it'll be very close.

And....Camaro IS slightly more aerodynamic than the CTS-V. But the Z may be getting super-wide tires (for a factory car, anyways)....so we'll see.

I totally agree with Dragoneye, Although Chevy's main objective is to be on par or better than the GT 500 they also want to avoid the Gas Guzzler Tax as much as possible. I am sure they will do whatever it takes to be fast, handle well, brake hard and get the best MPG possible from a 585HP car. I am sure that that they want to avoid the GG Tax as much as we do. We might see Electric Power Steering as a way to reduce parasitic friction and increase MPG.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I would have to think they're working their behind's off to get a reasonable rating. GT500 has escaped the guzzler tax this year...if they can't get that, I'm sure it'll be very close.

And....Camaro IS slightly more aerodynamic than the CTS-V. But the Z may be getting super-wide tires (for a factory car, anyways)....so we'll see.

I totally agree, but beyond the electric steering and aero', where are they going to come from? That's what I keep asking myself, because I think GM needs to make Z28 very comparable to efficiency. The weight penalty, which I'm sure is going to be greater than even SS, isn't going to help things, but I hope (and am sure they're going to do what they can) GM will go to every extent to control weight and keep it down where they can. Were $$$ an issue, I know this wouldn't be a problem, but it is what it is You pointed out tires, and that's not going to help aero either (doesn't Z06 and ZR1 have little lips in front of the front tires to move air around them? Maybe Z28 will go that direction, too )

Originally Posted by OldJedi

I totally agree with Dragoneye, Although Chevy's main objective is to be on par or better than the GT 500 they also want to avoid the Gas Guzzler Tax as much as possible. I am sure they will do whatever it takes to be fast, handle well, brake hard and get the best MPG possible from a 585HP car. I am sure that that they want to avoid the GG Tax as much as we do. We might see Electric Power Steering as a way to reduce parasitic friction and increase MPG.

See - that's the thing for me, too, in that I feel like they're going to boost power in Z28, and more power = more fuel, and will the EPS do much to compansate for that? Will they tune the car a little more efficient in order to get a little more mileage? I don't think they're going to make the tune less conservative, but maybe by optimizing the intake and exhaust track they can lower parasitic losses from other areas enough to offset the increase in fuel. There's also the problem with bigger brakes, axles, driveshafts, clutches, etc...

All I know is, as long as it handles as good as it goes straight, you won't find me complaining (unless I can't get one, lol).

[Mr. Wyndham]

The following is my opinion...and not to be interpreted as truth anywhere beyond my cranium.

Originally Posted by radz28

I totally agree, but beyond the electric steering and aero', where are they going to come from? That's what I keep asking myself, because I think GM needs to make Z28 very comparable to efficiency. The weight penalty, which I'm sure is going to be greater than even SS, isn't going to help things, but I hope (and am sure they're going to do what they can) GM will go to every extent to control weight and keep it down where they can. Were $$$ an issue, I know this wouldn't be a problem, but it is what it is You pointed out tires, and that's not going to help aero either (doesn't Z06 and ZR1 have little lips in front of the front tires to move air around them? Maybe Z28 will go that direction, too )

EPS and aero will have more of an effect that you might expect. Especially aerodynamics. It seems to me like the hood design is a true, honest-to-goodness air-extractor. Those vents duct right down to the rear of the radiator, removing heat and pressure from the engine bay. If my understanding of concepts behind how this all works is correct, it'll help the car slip through the air easier at higher speeds while enhancing its cooling abilities without adding weight (in fact, that hood might weigh LESS than current factory). The spoiler they've got on the back is subtle, but plays a huge role in reducing aerodynamic drag...and I wouldn't be surprised if they take a page out of the ZR1's book and include some partial belly pans under there to increase aero efficiency even further.

The tires will be important, because the more contact you make with the road, the more rolling resistance you have, and the harder the car is to keep pushing forward. Now...I have to imagine for testing purposes, they'd need to use wheels of comparable weight to those in production....if so, it looks like we're getting a HUGE weight cut from the SS. And its in a critical area...lighter weight wheels will spin more freely, that is, they'll require less power to accelerate. So maybe increasing the contact patch, but reducing rolling weight will balance each other out? I'm assuming a lot here...

As far as weight...I don't believe we're going to see a nasty increase in weight. Increase, yeah for sure....but I'm seeing some things on the car already that balance the increased weight of the supercharger and added coolant. And a hundred pounds (or even 200) won't drastically alter the fuel economy ratings of a car that's already 3800lbs. That's a 2.6-5.2% increase in weight...

Then there's gearing. Currently we've got a final drive of 3.45...they can probably shrink that and increase the first and second gear ratios to compensate for acceleration...the overall wouldn't change, but as you shift higher (specifically in 5th and 6th), they could keep the engine spinning a little slower than the LS3...I mean, if it's the LSA, for goodness sake's that fire breather can generate over 350 ft/lbs of torque at 1000 rpms!

Honestly, I don't really think we're going to see a 23hwy fuel economy rating from this beast. But I don't think 20-21 is out of the question....we'll see. We all thought the V6 would be no better than 26, and SURPRISE they announced 29mpg. So who knows what they'll be able to do.

Originally Posted by radz28

See - that's the thing for me, too, in that I feel like they're going to boost power in Z28, and more power = more fuel, and will the EPS do much to compansate for that? Will they tune the car a little more efficient in order to get a little more mileage? I don't think they're going to make the tune less conservative, but maybe by optimizing the intake and exhaust track they can lower parasitic losses from other areas enough to offset the increase in fuel. There's also the problem with bigger brakes, axles, driveshafts, clutches, etc...

All I know is, as long as it handles as good as it goes straight, you won't find me complaining (unless I can't get one, lol).

The EPS will remove some stresses on the engine, and the Camaro SHOULD have a less restrictive exhaust system than the Cadillac-quiet CTS-V. Couple that with a more efficient intake setup...I want to guess that the Z28 won't have "boosted" power...but "freed up" power. And that will also mean that when the 'free' power isn't being used...you're benefiting by increased efficiency.

And...the best thing about the Camaro where the Z28 is concerned...the unibody was designed from the get go to not only get 5-star crash ratings...but to handle such stupid amounts of power without needing reinforcement or much 'beefing up'. That's one of the big reasons the V6 isn't a 3500-3600 lbs car...it 'suffers' from the needs of the hi-po versions. The car is already built...meaning it won't need nearly as much beefing up as other cars out there might.

[OldJedi]

Dragoneye, this is just a guess on my part based on info from the recent spy photos. I think the Z28 will have 275/285- 20's on the front and 305/315-20's on the rear. The rear gear ratio will be 3.73 based on the CTS-V manual and the the car will be lowered more than the current SS. I agree with your evaluation of the air extractor hood. The reduced exhaust (louder) still has to get Federal drive-by tests but it should still weigh in under 4000 pounds and hopefully not too much above the SS. Reaching the 23 MPG and avoiding the GG tax will be hard, but still remotely possible.

[chain777]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

<

As far as weight...I don't believe we're going to see a nasty increase in weight. Increase, yeah for sure....but I'm seeing some things on the car already that balance the increased weight of the supercharger and added coolant. And a hundred pounds (or even 200) won't drastically alter the fuel economy ratings of a car that's already 3800lbs. That's a 2.6-5.2% increase in weight...

>

What do you think the difference in weight will be between the Z/28 and the CTS-V? I'm guessing a couple hundred pounds. The Z/28 should have a slight aero advantage. So I imagine it should be within a mile or two per gallon of the CTS-V. If they manage to avoid a GG tax, it will be impressive.

[OldJedi]

Originally Posted by chain777

What do you think the difference in weight will be between the Z/28 and the CTS-V? I'm guessing a couple hundred pounds. The Z/28 should have a slight aero advantage. So I imagine it should be within a mile or two per gallon of the CTS-V. If they manage to avoid a GG tax, it will be impressive.

There might be a chance to avoid a GG tax with the manual but not much of chance with the automatic. Just my opinion.

[alrox]

Originally Posted by OldJedi

There might be a chance to avoid a GG tax with the manual but not much of chance with the automatic. Just my opinion.

I think there is virtually no chance of having an LSA powered Camaro getting atleast 15/23 when the CTS-V coupe gets 14/19.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The following is my opinion...and not to be interpreted as truth anywhere beyond my cranium.

EPS and aero will have more of an effect that you might expect. Especially aerodynamics. It seems to me like the hood design is a true, honest-to-goodness air-extractor. Those vents duct right down to the rear of the radiator, removing heat and pressure from the engine bay. If my understanding of concepts behind how this all works is correct, it'll help the car slip through the air easier at higher speeds while enhancing its cooling abilities without adding weight (in fact, that hood might weigh LESS than current factory). The spoiler they've got on the back is subtle, but plays a huge role in reducing aerodynamic drag...and I wouldn't be surprised if they take a page out of the ZR1's book and include some partial belly pans under there to increase aero efficiency even further.

The tires will be important, because the more contact you make with the road, the more rolling resistance you have, and the harder the car is to keep pushing forward. Now...I have to imagine for testing purposes, they'd need to use wheels of comparable weight to those in production....if so, it looks like we're getting a HUGE weight cut from the SS. And its in a critical area...lighter weight wheels will spin more freely, that is, they'll require less power to accelerate. So maybe increasing the contact patch, but reducing rolling weight will balance each other out? I'm assuming a lot here...

As far as weight...I don't believe we're going to see a nasty increase in weight. Increase, yeah for sure....but I'm seeing some things on the car already that balance the increased weight of the supercharger and added coolant. And a hundred pounds (or even 200) won't drastically alter the fuel economy ratings of a car that's already 3800lbs. That's a 2.6-5.2% increase in weight...

Then there's gearing. Currently we've got a final drive of 3.45...they can probably shrink that and increase the first and second gear ratios to compensate for acceleration...the overall wouldn't change, but as you shift higher (specifically in 5th and 6th), they could keep the engine spinning a little slower than the LS3...I mean, if it's the LSA, for goodness sake's that fire breather can generate over 350 ft/lbs of torque at 1000 rpms!

Honestly, I don't really think we're going to see a 23hwy fuel economy rating from this beast. But I don't think 20-21 is out of the question....we'll see. We all thought the V6 would be no better than 26, and SURPRISE they announced 29mpg. So who knows what they'll be able to do.

The EPS will remove some stresses on the engine, and the Camaro SHOULD have a less restrictive exhaust system than the Cadillac-quiet CTS-V. Couple that with a more efficient intake setup...I want to guess that the Z28 won't have "boosted" power...but "freed up" power. And that will also mean that when the 'free' power isn't being used...you're benefiting by increased efficiency.

And...the best thing about the Camaro where the Z28 is concerned...the unibody was designed from the get go to not only get 5-star crash ratings...but to handle such stupid amounts of power without needing reinforcement or much 'beefing up'. That's one of the big reasons the V6 isn't a 3500-3600 lbs car...it 'suffers' from the needs of the hi-po versions. The car is already built...meaning it won't need nearly as much beefing up as other cars out there might.

I'm thinking they'll bring over the lower ratios of the MG9, from the CTS-V, which are less aggressive, just for the reasons you mentioned. I've been kicking around some of the details you bring up and definately hope they can take advantage of as many of them as possible. I hadn't really thought too much into the hood though, in terms of aero' management, though that totally makes sense. I think, for the most part, the weight will come from the obvious: engine/tranny/rear end/driveshaft/additional coolers and plumbing. I do hope they can offset some of that, and believe they'll at least take that into account - I just worry there might be too much to keep at a fair (i.e. GT500) pricepoint. I hope I'm wrong in that respect though.

Originally Posted by OldJedi

Dragoneye, this is just a guess on my part based on info from the recent spy photos. I think the Z28 will have 275/285- 20's on the front and 305/315-20's on the rear. The rear gear ratio will be 3.73 based on the CTS-V manual and the the car will be lowered more than the current SS. I agree with your evaluation of the air extractor hood. The reduced exhaust (louder) still has to get Federal drive-by tests but it should still weigh in under 4000 pounds and hopefully not too much above the SS. Reaching the 23 MPG and avoiding the GG tax will be hard, but still remotely possible.

With a dual-mode exhaust, I believe it can eek by and pick up a little more power, just like 'Vettes have enjoyed for a few years

Originally Posted by alrox

I think there is virtually no chance of having an LSA powered Camaro getting atleast 15/23 when the CTS-V coupe gets 14/19.

Though I hate to admit it, I believe this is correct. Perhaps some aftermarket enhancements that further efficiency (i.e. CAI, catback, tune) might make that possible, but I believe if they could've done that with CTS-V, they would have No biggie for me though

[2010SSRSM6]

The GG tax is such a scam. You get burned up front for getting a car/truck/suv that gets bad mpg, then every time you pull up to the pump you get it again. I know we are paying over $.50 per gallon in taxes alone here in Commyfornia.

That being said......



556hp is only going to put the rwhp around 475ish. I can't imagine that the gas milage will be that bad compaired to my SS.

[Nine Ball]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

And....Camaro IS slightly more aerodynamic than the CTS-V. But the Z may be getting super-wide tires (for a factory car, anyways)....so we'll see.

Where did you find this information? Side by side, I'd say my CTS-V appears more sleek on the nose than a Camaro does. Physcially, the Camaro looks larger than my V does up front, too. I'd like to know the Cd values of both cars.