Happy with E85 not 93

[Robmnrd]

Originally Posted by Ds98formula

I am hoping that is what is going on. I could see my pre pulley numbers being a bit too high. I have just seen a lot of combos like mine make 580-600 on 93 octane.

My gain for E85 is what I was expecting. Just lower base then I expected.

I don’t have track numbers pre pulley but I do have several dragy numbers. Including 60-130mph 40-100 using only third gear 60-100 only 3rd gear. So I will retest those and see if it gained any. I just have to use all the e85 in the tank first. I was going to do it yesterday but refilled with e85 to take my buddy for a ride.

Edit: also another member on here has same combo, same tuner, same dyno put down 600 on 93. So it just confuses me they seem to think my numbers were ok. Meaning they where ok losing power and even told me it was due to timing. Now if they told me my first number where too high or that they had recalibrated the dyno I would be 100percent on board. But he explained it like he was not surprised I added a pulley and lost power. He said my 93 tune pre pulley was optimized and after the pulley they could not optimize it on 93

That's odd, doesn't really add up imo (what they are saying). It's not like your build is incredibly unique or has weird one-off parts to it... it's basic boltons with a non-aggressive pulley setup.

When they said timing was pulled, did they mean they pulled it on purpose (beyond a reasonable amount for the added boost, under all temperature scenarios) Or was it just unlucky that the "final" pull/numbers were done with enough heat soak finally set in that timing was reduced significantly due to IAT2? Meaning were previous runs while they were still tuning better, and on this one when everything was dialed in fully it just happened to be a crap run because IAT2s got so high that timing was pulled significantly? If this is the case then maybe everything really is fine and if the car cooled down 10 minutes you'd gain another 30 horse or so..

[Ds98formula]

Originally Posted by Robmnrd

That's odd, doesn't really add up imo (what they are saying). It's not like your build is incredibly unique or has weird one-off parts to it... it's basic boltons with a non-aggressive pulley setup.

When they said timing was pulled, did they mean they pulled it on purpose (beyond a reasonable amount for the added boost, under all temperature scenarios) Or was it just unlucky that the "final" pull/numbers were done with enough heat soak finally set in that timing was reduced significantly due to IAT2? Meaning were previous runs while they were still tuning better, and on this one when everything was dialed in fully it just happened to be a crap run because IAT2s got so high that timing was pulled significantly? If this is the case then maybe everything really is fine and if the car cooled down 10 minutes you'd gain another 30 horse or so..

He said pulled on purpose.

I asked them if it was maybe just too hot for the final number as they went from 93 tuning straight into E85 tuning. I was told there was plenty of cool down between runs. Now the guy at the shop I spoke to is not the tuner and he could have been just giving me answers.

So if they rushed the 93 tune and tuned it while it was too hot would getting it cool enough make more power or should it need to be tuned while cool enough too?

I am really hoping it is just the being dyno calibrated since my pre pulley number because the e85 numbers are a solid improvement from the 93number even my old 93 numbers. However if there is more to gain in 93 then my E85 numbers start looking worse. I will say this. With the E85 tune I ran a few 40-100 with the dragy and a few 60-100. All using third gear. And with similar weather as before pulley and e 85 numbers. Results where dropping .51 seconds off my 60-100 time and .78 seconds off my 40-100 times.

[Robmnrd]

Originally Posted by Ds98formula

He said pulled on purpose.

I asked them if it was maybe just too hot for the final number as they went from 93 tuning straight into E85 tuning. I was told there was plenty of cool down between runs. Now the guy at the shop I spoke to is not the tuner and he could have been just giving me answers.

So if they rushed the 93 tune and tuned it while it was too hot would getting it cool enough make more power or should it need to be tuned while cool enough too?

I am really hoping it is just the being dyno calibrated since my pre pulley number because the e85 numbers are a solid improvement from the 93number even my old 93 numbers. However if there is more to gain in 93 then my E85 numbers start looking worse. I will say this. With the E85 tune I ran a few 40-100 with the dragy and a few 60-100. All using third gear. And with similar weather as before pulley and e 85 numbers. Results where dropping .51 seconds off my 60-100 time and .78 seconds off my 40-100 times.

Your E numbers and performance change make perfect sense to me and are totally in line with what would be expected for the total build - I do not think there is a problem there at all. I am currently discussing getting my car worked on at DMS with the final outcome being almost exactly the same build as yours but using a 2.45 pulley instead of 2.55 - with my A6 we are estimating roughly the same numbers as what you are putting down (slightly more aggressive pulley, but a bit more parasitic drivetrain loss - basically equals out).

I do think you are correct to be scrutinizing the before-pulley 93 run as well as the after-pulley 93 run. Something somewhere with those two is a little off, whether it was a happy dyno the first time or a problem with the tune this time. Heck it could be a bit of both.

I am glad you did so many pre-pulley dragy runs - when your current tank of E is nearly empty, fill up with 93 and do some dragy runs. I think this will provide clues for our current conundrum.

[Ds98formula]

Originally Posted by Robmnrd

Your E numbers and performance change make perfect sense to me and are totally in line with what would be expected for the total build - I do not think there is a problem there at all. I am currently discussing getting my car worked on at DMS with the final outcome being almost exactly the same build as yours but using a 2.45 pulley instead of 2.55 - with my A6 we are estimating roughly the same numbers as what you are putting down (slightly more aggressive pulley, but a bit more parasitic drivetrain loss - basically equals out).

I do think you are correct to be scrutinizing the before-pulley 93 run as well as the after-pulley 93 run. Something somewhere with those two is a little off, whether it was a happy dyno the first time or a problem with the tune this time. Heck it could be a bit of both.

I am glad you did so many pre-pulley dragy runs - when your current tank of E is nearly empty, fill up with 93 and do some dragy runs. I think this will provide clues for our current conundrum.

Will do the 93tests for sure. I will make sure I update the tread when I do. May be a week or so as I work a lot so I am not sure how long it will take to empty the tank

[12oclockshadow]

Fill up 100 % with 93. Do dragy tests again. Then we can make more accurate conclusions. Talking about this or that hp being higher or lower is sorta irrelevant. Dynos change, heat soak, humidity etc. Dynos are a tuning tool is all really

[Ds98formula]

That’s the plan. Then I will report back.

[ChuckZL1]

I agree with this post, your initial numbers seem high without a pulley. My A6 stock dynoed at 450ish.

Originally Posted by Robmnrd

I'm gonna play devil's advocate and say your pre-pulley 93 dyno was a happy dyno. Even if it was the same dyno and tuner, one lil number being slightly off in how they have it adjusted that day can make a significant difference in the graph and numbers it showed...

Any track times for your pre-pulley dyno? Specifically your mph.

I would expect an M6 car with CAI, exhaust and dyno tune to make ~520whp on 93, which would make your post-pulley numbers (with a non-aggressive 2.55) make a lot more sense.

Edit: Evidence to support my theory can be found all throughout the 'official dyno thread' where the very basic bolton cars (depending on auto/m6, specific parts/mods, and tuned vs non-tuned) tend to make ~475 (very low end for A6 cars) up to about 530 (very high end M6 cars). Additionally, my own A6 with CAI, kooks LTs w/hi-flow cats and open flap NPP dyno tuned up at a hair over 500whp. M6 would have a been a little more, right in line with projected numbers. 567 just seems way outside this range.

[spadz93]

My stock manual dyno'd at 500 with nothing, and 520 with an intake. Headers would have probably put me at just around your initial numbers.

To me, it looks like pulled timing based on your IAT2 temperatures. You'd be making more power on E85 because its higher octane rating allows you to run more timing before the IAT2 timing map has any affect. You pulley'd up, which makes me think the higher IATs due to no heat exchanger are pulling some timing out as things heat up.

Alternatively, and really unlikely with this setup, you could be getting belt slip. Or there's a boost leak somewhere. Check your logs to see if boost maintained steady pressure or if it fell off.

These are my ideas, but I'm no professional

[Ds98formula]

Originally Posted by RobZL1

Hmm. If you got on it hard with the stock intercooler and HEX system, iat2 should have definitely gotten higher than 15 degrees above ambient with a 2.55 pulley. If you did a full pull in 3rd or a partial in 4th, it should jump higher than that.

Today iat1 is 44degrees and iat2 was at 53 Did a pull in third gear iat2 went to 82 Followed by a short 20 second cruise where iat fell back to 66 then I did a pull in 4th from 2000rpms all the way to 6000rpms. During the 4th gear pull temps went from 66 to 95 and back to 66 after like 40 seconds of cruising. Seen normal?

Still burning up the E85 so I can test 93

[Ds98formula]

Originally Posted by spadz93

My stock manual dyno'd at 500 with nothing, and 520 with an intake. Headers would have probably put me at just around your initial numbers.

To me, it looks like pulled timing based on your IAT2 temperatures. You'd be making more power on E85 because its higher octane rating allows you to run more timing before the IAT2 timing map has any affect. You pulley'd up, which makes me think the higher IATs due to no heat exchanger are pulling some timing out as things heat up.

Alternatively, and really unlikely with this setup, you could be getting belt slip. Or there's a boost leak somewhere. Check your logs to see if boost maintained steady pressure or if it fell off.

These are my ideas, but I'm no professional

Good ideas.

Started diving into the iat numbers they seem to be ok. I will test more when I put 93 in it. Won’t really know till I test out the 93

I also think belt slip is unlikely as it would do the same on E85 I would think.

[RobZL1]

Originally Posted by Ds98formula

Today iat1 is 44degrees and iat2 was at 53 Did a pull in third gear iat2 went to 82 Followed by a short 20 second cruise where iat fell back to 66 then I did a pull in 4th from 2000rpms all the way to 6000rpms. During the 4th gear pull temps went from 66 to 95 and back to 66 after like 40 seconds of cruising. Seen normal?

Still burning up the E85 so I can test 93

Yep. That's perfectly normal iat2 rise in a pull. 30-40 degrees is in the range of temp rise through the gear.

Makes me think temp rise or cooling circuit is not the problem, unless it got really heat-soaked on the dyno.

Could always do a log of a pull with e85 and then 93 and slap them into the virtual dyno software. See how they correlate to your dyno runs. If pretty similar for e85, but higher VD numbers for 93, it was likely heat soaked on the dyno. If e85 and 93 on VD roughly match the dyno runs, then it is what it is!

[Mmcmon]

There are so many other factors you may not be considering. What is your lambda? Does it change during different rpm zones? You may just be getting richer ratios at the top of your rpm range.
I changed my timing tables to allow for the extra boost. High load & rpm timing should be around 14.

[Ds98formula]

Originally Posted by RobZL1

Yep. That's perfectly normal iat2 rise in a pull. 30-40 degrees is in the range of temp rise through the gear.

Makes me think temp rise or cooling circuit is not the problem, unless it got really heat-soaked on the dyno.

Could always do a log of a pull with e85 and then 93 and slap them into the virtual dyno software. See how they correlate to your dyno runs. If pretty similar for e85, but higher VD numbers for 93, it was likely heat soaked on the dyno. If e85 and 93 on VD roughly match the dyno runs, then it is what it is!

Cool thanks. I am glad it is a normal temp raise throughout the gear. I am still burning off the E85 so I can test the 93 numbers. I am hoping it is just a bad set of 93 numbers and it still performs better on the 93 then before the pulley. I appreciate all the help from everyone.

On a side note the E85 seems to be really strong. I was able to get my 60-130mph time down to a 8.3 just using 3rd and 4th gear on my first try on the E85. My best 60-130 prepulley and E85 was a 9.52 using 2nd-4th. my best just using 3rd and 4th prepulley was 9.75. I tried doing 60-130 with the e85 tune using 2nd-4th but my all seasons wont hold 2nd gear lol.

[RobZL1]

Originally Posted by Mmcmon

There are so many other factors you may not be considering. What is your lambda? Does it change during different rpm zones? You may just be getting richer ratios at the top of your rpm range.
I changed my timing tables to allow for the extra boost. High load & rpm timing should be around 14.

14 degrees of advance is way too low for his mods.