Noob upgrading suspension

[bajamoon]

I'm down at 1.25 and I don't crunch parking blocks, scrape them yes. That's why coilovers are worth it, ou can adjust the height and have a great ride or comparable to stock

[chevyfan#1]

I hear Pedders makes good stuff.

[caverman]

Originally Posted by Dexman1349

Thanks for the tips.

My only hesitation on the springs/coilovers is the fact that I have to climb a curb to get into my garage and I have a bad habit of scraping the underside of my bumper on wheel stops. If I drop the car 1" I am no longer scraping, I'd be crunching. Besides, I prefer the look of a consistent sized gap between the fender and tire.

When I had 1" drop springs I was able to barely clear curbs. Now I'm about 1.25" or maybe a little more. You have to learn not to pull up all the way to the curb. Stop beforehand or you will smash the lower lip. Teaching my wife to do the same is not so easy though.


I took these of my wife's parking. She didn't see anything wrong with it.

Don't pull up that close to the curb. No need for it. Our cars fit just fine without pulling all the way up. You can see at least 2' or more behind the car and still be able to be in the space.

[Dexman1349]

Caverman, what did you think of the LSR sway bar?

When I go for the sway bar, I will get the end links and possibly upgrade the end link mounting bracket. For $700 I can get BMR front & rear adjustable sways and end links. LSR has basically the same thing for just over $600, except their sways are much stiffer. Either way, I would probably get the BMR end link mounting brace for $50.

I'm finding Trailing arms and toe links starting at $250 (including bushings).

[Bruce@raymondsperformance]

Originally Posted by chevyfan#1

I hear Pedders makes good stuff.

[caverman]

Personally, if you're going to spend that much for swaybars and end links I would recommend that you look the ZL1 conversion kit from Pedders for $750. This will convert you over to what is supposed to be a much more balanced setup by using the new FE4 lower control arms. This is basically what I'm doing except that I can't afford the whole package so I'm only doing the rear for now and when money allows I'll do the fronts. So, can't give you real world feedback on it yet until I get them installed hopefully in the next couple weeks.
https://secure.merlinsoftware.com.au...AMAROSWAYCONV1

If you're going to spend that kind of money, you should really look at upgrading to the FE4/FE5 suspension instead of just sticking with the FE3 style.

Sounds like Pfadt's new ZL1 Spec bars are a great new FE4 style bar as well. However, the cost to convert our '10 over is closer to the $825 range for their turn key package.

As for the LSR bars.....I don't really have any good or bad to say. I didn't feel some unbelievable difference in my car. Then again I only have them set to the middle setting so that I wouldn't break my Lower Control Arm tabs that seem to be common on the '10 with the stiffest setting. This is another reason to go with the FE5 rear setup....you get the new style LCA that shouldn't crack the connection point. I also live in the flat land called TX. Not alot of twisty roads and hills to test them out on. The only time I really get a chance to push the car is at an AutoX event and I only do those a couple times a year. Surely they have to help over the stock bars though but I don't know that you'll feel some night and day difference unless you upgrade everything and set it to the stiffest setting.

If you really want to squeeze your money you can talk to Pete about getting just the rear setup with the new LCA, Pedders drop links, and 32mm bar and then go pick up a stock 1LE/ZL1 front bar with '12-'13 stock front end links which are supposed to be thicker that our '10 endlinks. I think you will have to drill out your bolt wholes for the front end links though. I believe I read that '10 stock bolts are 10mm and '12-'13 bolts are 12mm. So, installation will be a little trickier than by just buying Pedders full kit but you can probably save yourself about $200.

As for Trailing Arms/Toe Rods.....go take a look at Jegs for some BMR ones. I just picked up a set of Toe Rods shipped to my door for $113 ($99 + shipping). You could probably call BMR and have them match the Jegs price. They all come dropshipped from BMR anyway.

I will say that I without a doubt that I felt a difference after installing the Pedders Street Z package. Much firmer feel in the rear end. To me that's a must do.

Don't forget about making sure you get a good Alignment to the specs that either Pedders or Pfadt puts out. That should really help alot as well.

[Dexman1349]

Are the Pedder's rear sway bars adjustable? The descriptions are ambiguous. I know the fronts are 3-way adjustable with adjustable end links, but I am unclear on the rear bars. It appears the rear end links are adjustable too, correct?

If I upgrade to the "Solution B" kit, would I also need to get the rear lower control arm bracket?
https://secure.merlinsoftware.com.au...e=BOLT+ON+RLCA

[caverman]

I would PM JusticePete with questions like this. He can tell you exactly what you do/don't need. Just let him know the budget you are working in and the goals you want to do with your car. I think he might be out at SEMA right now so he might be limited on response time but he will get back with you.

I do believe Pedders sway bars are adjustable and if you stick with the FE3 control arm I would get the support tabs since they are known to crack with the stiffer sway bars.

[PfadtRacing]

We have a couple different sway bar packages. Our Camaro Sport Sway bar package will bolt directly to your current hardware and features a fixed front bar and an adjustable rear bar. We have been using this package ever since we began manufacturing parts for the Camaro and it's been making folks with your FE3 suspension package very happy for years now. The limiting factor to our bar tuning with this package was the factory rear pickup points. Ultimately we would have dialed in more rear sway bar, but the factory rear brackets were prohibiting that.

In 2012 with the introduction of the FE4 Suspension package from GM we are able to build the sway bar package we've always wanted to for these cars. Our ZL Spec Sways feature an adjustable front and rear bar, and their hollow construction keeps the durability high and weight to a minimum. The Adjustable front and rear bar will allow you to not only dial in the turn in response of the car with the front bar, but the overall balance of the vehicle with the rear bar. The rear bar changes are incredibly easy with our QuickSwitch connectors, with this setup you don't even need to completely remove the rear endlink to make changes.

Overall our ZL Spec sways are the best bars we've ever manufactured for the Camaro. Here is a great photo from user KobSS of his entirely Pfadt equipped rear subframe, you can see the adjustable rear sways attached to the rear lower control arms.

We offer the bars by themselves for current ZL1 owners. With the necessary front sway bar endlinks for current 2012+ V8 owners, and also offer one complete package including all parts necessary for 2010-2011 owners!

You can get a feel for the differences in rate between all of the OEM bar packages and ours here on this chart. Keep in mind that sway bar stiffness is not a huge contributor to overall ride quality. That's one of the great things about sway bars, is that you can significantly improve the handling and balance of your car without making major changes to the ride quality.

We currently have all of our sway bar packages, including all endlink and OEM upgrade hardware in stock and ready to ship!



FRONT ROLL STIFFNESS CHART:



REAR ROLL STIFFNESS CHART

[Fast6.3]

If your on a budget I would get the peddes street 1 kit for around 300 than some swaybars.
I got fadt swaybars but I think pedders is just as good for about the same price. both of those companies have gm approved parts

[OmniCamaro]

Originally Posted by caverman

When I had 1" drop springs I was able to barely clear curbs. Now I'm about 1.25" or maybe a little more. You have to learn not to pull up all the way to the curb. Stop beforehand or you will smash the lower lip. Teaching my wife to do the same is not so easy though.


I took these of my wife's parking. She didn't see anything wrong with it.

Don't pull up that close to the curb. No need for it. Our cars fit just fine without pulling all the way up. You can see at least 2' or more behind the car and still be able to be in the space.

YIKES!!! THAT crap would justify me never handing my wife the keys ever again! Maybe she needs glasses!!!

Great info in this thread BTW, I'm subscribed!

[JusticePete]

There is a wealth of information in this thread from Caverman, Rob and Bruce. I thought I would chime in with the rest of the story.

Foundational 5th Gen Required Upgrades

There is a noticeable rear end step out in turns while applying power or brakes and dealing with bumps in the 5th Gen. This is due to the voids in the OEM Sub-frame bushes. It is not unique to the Camaro. It is typical of IRS systems installed with rubber bushes to isolate the passenger area from road noise. Sub-frame bushes are a foundational component of the IRS and the most important modification that can be made to a 5th Gen. If you add more power it will place more load on the sub-frame bushes and amplify rear end step out / rear end steer. Lower the Camaro's CG with lowering coils and rear end step will be more pronounced. The larger and stickier your rear tires the more pronounced the sub-frame movement becomes. If you set your fence posts in Jello the finished fence will wiggle like Jello. Your OE sub-frame bushes are nothing like Jello, but they are not as stable as an enthusiast would like as the foundation for 5th Gen performance.

When your 5th Gen is on an alignment rack, the technician adjusts Caster, Camber and Toe to within a 10th or 100th of a degree. The OEM sub-frame bushes allow a much larger range in dynamic alignment angles. These changes in dynamic alignment account for the loose rear end, rear end step out or rear end steer. Filling the voids in the OEM sub-frame bushes reduces the range of dynamic alignment and loose rear end, rear end steer, and rear end step out go away. The rear sub-frame complete with IRS uses four bolts to attach to the monocoque. There is a locating tapered pilot that passes through the larger rear sub-frame bush and positions the sub-frame to the monocoque. The larger sub-frame bush has a ferule that fits over the Locating Post. This not only centers the sub-frame, but anchors it much as a weld would to the monocoque. The movement in the rear sub-frame is relative to the voids in the OEM rubber bushes. If the voids are filled with urethane inserts or the OE bushes replaced with higher durometer full urethane, movement of the rear sub-frame is virtually eliminated.

Rear Sub-Frame Rear Bush / Bolt / Locating Post


Rear Sub-Frame Forward Bush / Bolt Area


The ZETA II Camaro features much larger sub-frame bushes than the ZETA I G8. These were improved to handle the higher loads created by larger wheels and tires with the high RWHP found in the Camaro. While they are an improvement, we do not feel they are stable enough for the way we drive a Camaro so we designed three solutions.

Pedders EP1200 Sub-Frame Inserts are good up to 550 RWHP. The inserts fill the OEM voids in the rubber sub-frame bushes from both the top and bottom. The control surfaces are dramatically increased. Since the OEM bushes remain in place, this is more than just a great upgrade. It is relatively easy to install the EP1200. These eight pieces transform your Camaro and are probably the single biggest bang for the buck modification you can make.



When Chevrolet introduced the Convertible they also made a change to the sub-frame bushes to address rear-end-step-out. If your Camaro was built in 2011 chances are it has the revised sub-frame bushes. The revised OE bushes have a bit more rubber in them and less NVH void space. They are an improvement over the earlier versions, but we at Pedders still feel they could be better and advise the 5th Gen owner to start with the foundation, to start with the sub-frame bush inserts or full bushes. On the left are the voids in the FE3 sub-frame bush. On the right you can see that the small voids have been filled, but there is a lot of empty space to be filled.



While Chevrolet engineering has improved the original 5th Gen sub-frame bush design starting with the first convertible, the smaller forward sub-frame bush in the FE3, FE4, FE5 and FE6 all have voided space and only the pencil wide shoulder of the bush for control. On the ZL1 the smaller front bush was made of a harder denser rubber to improve control. They still left a lot of 'room' for improvement. Pedders EP1200 sub-frame bush inserts fill the room, the empty space and dramatically increase the the upper and lower control surfaces in the front, small OE sub-frame area.



The rear sub-frame OE bushes had the voids filled starting with the Vert as well. The rear sub-frame bush is the same in the FE4, FE5 and FE6 5th Gens. Look at the control surfaces and you make the decision. Which will offer more control?




OE Sub-Frame Bush



Pedderised with EP1200 Sub-Frame Inserts





The best part of this foundational upgrade is that they is absolutely no change in ride quality. NONE. What you do gain is stability in the IRS. Your Pedderised IRS is more stable and more predictable.

Pedders EP1200 inserts will require a trim to fit in the revised sub-frame bushes. In this photo you see the fingers on the inserts that fill very thin voids in 5th Gens built prior to late March.



To fit a Pedders EP1200 Insert Kit on a 5th Gen (some 11s, all 12s and 13s) with the revised bushes, use a pair of scissors to trim the very thin fingers off the inserts. In this photo, we have covered the fingers with white paper. As you can see, what remains 96% of the urethane material by weight to fill the voids that remain in the revised OE bushes.





With the increased grip of the ZL1 specifically compounded tires and the increase in power with the LSA the ZL1 and the denser front sub-frame bush we find the inserts to be a perfect match and suitable for use to 650 RWHP. Btw, I wonder where GM got the idea to fill in at least part of the void in the sub-frame bushes

For those taking all Camaros, with the exception of the ZL1, beyond 550 RWHP, drag racers and hard core corner lovers the Pedders EP1201 full urethane Sub-Frame Bushes. With these robust bushes installed and well over 550 RWHP your Camaro will launch cleanly and track true under load. In these photos you can almost feel the improvement in performance. The OEM ferules are designed for ease of assembly on an assembly line. The OEM ferule has 3/4" holes for a 14mm bolt. Those loose fitting for ease of assembly OEM ferules are replaced with Pedders and holes suited to the 14mm bolts used to more securely attach the sub-frame to the monocoque. This change means there is no possible movement in the assembly under any load that doesn't bend or shear a sub-frame bolt. The increase in control surface is nothing short of MASSIVE. Your rear sub-frame will now follow your Camaro and not attempt to steer your Camaro. Switch backs are tamed. Drag launches are harder and crisper with a more efficient transfer of power.



For ultimate in IRS control Pedders has developed the EP1201HD. Racers use Delrin bushes machined from stock. These are hard plastic suitable ONLY to a race car. They place too much load on the small welds throughout the sub-frame. Aluminum bushes are no different. Delrin and Aluminum are great in a race car where the welds are checked after every race weekend and the entire car is seam welded. In a street driven automobile there has to be some forgiveness in the sub-frame bush material to protect the useful life of the sub-frame and monocoque. Pedders EP1201HD is a urethane of high dura that when captured by the Camaro sheet metal performs like Delrin or aluminum right up to the point of accidental impact when there is just enough forgiveness to protect the key components. These bushes do transmit more road noise than the EP1200 inserts or the EP1201 full bushes. In the Pedders USA, LLC Camaro we barely notice a difference because the aggressive tires we run. The EP1201HD is not a typical Pedders bit. It is designed for ONLY the most dedicated enthusiasts. In the video, you will see that there is NO visible sub-frame movement, even with a 3 2 downshift with wide open throttle.



While the Pedders bushes appear to be larger in height than the OEM bushes. That is an illusion. The Pedders bushes are designed to fill the space between the sub-frame and the monocoque just like the OEM bush with no change in the size of the gap. On the lower portion, the Pedders bushes fill the metal OEM plates. There is a pre-load on the bushes, but no change in the installed height. We wanted achieve both control and long term durability of the sub-frame and monocoque goals with minimal change in OEM NVH and no change in ride quality and that is what the EP1200, EP1201 and EP1201HD deliver.

We used a prototype tool to remove the sub-frame bushes on the car. A plastic piece of 5" PVC pipe. Gorilla tape on the outside just in case. An old bearing plate for the bottom with another round steel disc from the assortment we use at the hydraulic press. A 14mm Acmes threaded rod with nuts and washers completed the 'tool'. A strong rattle gun (Aussie slang for Impact Gun) applied pressure along with a little heat to separate the paint from the FRP jackets and the bushes were out in minutes..








What does all this mean to a 5th Gen Camaro owner in terms of suspension performance?

Pedders Camaro Running Race Car Speeds on Track


It means YOU own a bad XXX automobile. It means you own more car than you probably thought you had purchased. It means your Camaro will remain tight and solid for many years and thousands of miles. It means your Camaro will respond exceptionally well to suspension modifications because it is such a robust and stable platform. It means you can drive your 5th gen with confidence knowing that it is built by Chevrolet to exceed your expectations. It means your suspension will work as designed when driven to the aggressively on track or down your city's streets.

The 5th Gen Camaro off the showroom floor is a very good driving experience. You will notice that the ride is supple over bumps. This is due to the advanced design of the ZETA II chassis along with the very large wheel and tire package. There is substantial lean and roll, yet the 5th Gen sticks in turns. The steering is a bit softer than we would like. The SS Brembo brakes are very good, but the pedal feel not as sharp as we would like. Drive past 7/10ths, you'll find the IRS has too much movement. The range of dynamic alignment changes allows rear end step out, rear wheel steer, a loose feeling in the rear. It undermines driver confidence. Having said this, a bone stock 5th Gen Camaro blistered the Nurburing. On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being a perfect car, we rate the 5th Gen SS a 6.5. The SS 1LE is a 7.5. The ZL1 is an amazing 8.5 of the showroom floor.



Track Time
Nordschleife 7:41.27
Inde Motorsports 1:41.29
Ranch Config. 4 1:41.29
Laguna Seca 1:39.18
GingerMan 1:42.05
Grattan 1:27.95

As good as the ZL1 times are, and they are very good times, no street legal Camaro has matched the www.PeddersUSA.com Camaro's Gingerman lap time.


Pedderised NASCAR Pace Car

How could it be better? If the 5th Gen SS were not built to a market price-point it would be close to a 10 off the showroom floor. Price-points are critical to sales so that is not the case. One straight forward example is Urethane. Urethane is far more expensive than rubber. The low hanging fruit for the Camaro owner is in urethane inserts for the radius and sub-frame bushes. Installing EP1200 inserts EP1201 Full Replacement Bushes or Pedders EP1201HD tack bushes settles down the IRS virtually eliminating unwanted rear end steer, rear end step out and the feeling of a loose rear end. These inserts work with the OE parts to make your driving experience more confident. The most any driver can hope for is their race car is stable and predictable. Addressing the sub-frame bushes and the associated rear end step out created by a wide dynamic range of alignment angle changes increases the stability and predictability of the 5th Gen Camaro. This isn't an optional up-grade. This is your first foundational 5th Gen upgrade and the building block for all future upgrades.

GM redesigned the radius arm on the ZETA II Camaro. It uses a large hydraulically damped bush on one end and a ball joint on the other. The arm is more linear to deliver improved steering feel. Drivers that are tuned into their Camaro will notice slight softness in steering feel, the brake pedal and perhaps describe it as isolated or vague. Pedders started early on with the Camaro GS Prototype built at the Milford Proving Grounds and worked on a full urethane radius / brake tension rod bush. This was a very special project with GM – the 2010 Camaro GS Race Car Concept shown at SEMA 2010. This video walks you through the OE and Pedders bushes with Jason Debler from http://www.camaroz28.com/



Replacing the hydraulically damped OEM radius rod bushes will help with steering and pedal feel. While the NVH properties are excellent, they are too soft for performance driving in our opinion. Pedders offers three solutions for this. The first option is a direct replacement street-friendly urethane insert for the OEM rubber bit. The firmer urethane insert removes some of the compliance in the bush improving brake pedal and steering feel. The back-story on this bush is it is a GM designed part. One of the GS engineers wanted to test it for use in in sanctioned racing. We made twenty sets for him. Unfortunately that project was shut down during the GM adjustment period. The samples were sent back to www.PeddersUSA.com along with permission to take them to market. Using an EP6578 is as simple as removing two bolts, removing the soft OEM rubber insert, installing the Pedders urethane and bolting it back together. You may wonder if such a small part can make a difference in such a large automobile. You will be pleasantly surprised on their first test drive.



The full urethane bush replacement is Pedders EP6577 Camaro Urethane Steel Jacketed Radius Rod Bush. This is one robust bush with holes and voids designed to make our street friendly urethane mimic the NVH characteristics of the OEM bush with the performance of a urethane bush. If you track your car, the EP6577 will be the most durable solution. The inserts work to reduce motion, but the basic issue of the OEM bush remains -- it is hydraulically damped and can potentially fail on track. Pedders EP6577 is virtually indestructible on or off the track.



The third is an EP6579 full face Camaro Front Extreme Radius Rod Bush Insert replacing the soft OEM rubber insert with a very high durometer piece. It was designed as an alternative to the EP6578 for the GS Camaro project. The combination of bonded rubber ferrule steel jacketed bush with a full face high durometer urethane insert is outstanding. This solution is extremely firm and may lead to premature wear in the tie rod ends or the steering rack. This is the solution we have installed on the Pedders USA Camaro because we prefer the extra control. We have clients with over 100,000 miles driven with the EP6579 and no signs of premature wear. Because we are Pedders we error on the side of caution, but in this case it appears we will be lifting the cautionary wording soon. This is a hardcore option for the most demanding driver and my choice for my 5th Gen.



These two short videos show you how to install the inserts. It is so easy, even a caveman could do it.

Removing the OEM Rubber Snubber


Installing the EP6579 Full Face Urethane Insert


All three Pedders radius / brake tension arm solution accomplish the same goal in a different way. They reduce the range of caster change while driving. The direct result is a more on center feel to the steering. Combine that with a Pedders Tight Spec Alignment and you'll drive away thinking a new steering rack was installed. With the mission critical required foundational bushes in place your 5th Gen is ready to go or ready to grow.

Here is the Index to THE BOOK.

Pedders 2010 Chevrolet Camaro Suspension Evaluation

Foundational 5th Gen Required Upgrades

Lowering Coils and Coilovers

Trouble Free, OEM Quiet V6 Lowering

Sway Bars

Suspension Bushes

ZL1 / CTS-V Brake Upgrade for the SS

Wheels and Tires

Bush Timing, Alignment and Torque Specs

Pedders USA Camaro 2.0

Lingenfelter L/28 Tech

5th Gen Wheel Hop and Drag Race Setup

Thermal Management

Running Changes Made to the 5th Gen by Chevrolet

Public Track Test #1

Public Track Test #2 Camaro vs. Mustang Supercar Shootout

Caution: Test driving any Pedderised vehicle can be dangerous. Pedderised vehicles have been known to induce suspension envy and sleepless nights filled with longing. Before test-driving any Pedderised vehicle, check with your banking and accounting professionals. Pedderised vehicles are known to induce credit card bills and reduced bank balances. There is no antidote. Only genuine Pedders can cure Suspension Envy.

[bajamoon]

I agree good info in this thread...

[Dexman1349]

Awesome info JusticePete, thank you!!