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Old 01-30-2010, 07:24 PM   #29
The_Blur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shank0668 View Post
You are correct, only 1,415 ZR-1's in 2009....... But blur, are you saying make a Camaro with say an LS-7 its own model? Or a RPO? If you made it its own model then it could be exempt. Chris, the ZR1 is an option of the Corvette, not its own model, I think blur is saying make it its own model not an option.
The ZR1 is a Trim. The Camaro is a model. If GM sells a custom model and calls it something else, fits it with different parts, and gives different options, the EPA has no choice but to treat it differently.

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Originally Posted by Callaway Chris View Post
Thanks. I understand what they are saying however, please understand, GM will not make the Camaro its own model in an effort to build less than 2,000 units. To remain a viable company, GM needs to sell as many cars as it can
GM would still be producing the Camaro, and this model would share most of its body components with the Camaro, keeping costs to a minimum. This would basically consolidate leftover crate engines and parts into a new car. You could call it a product of leftovers not unlike the lunch after Thanksgiving. GM has the parts laying around warehouses and factories. Let's make a few custom creations with them.

As much as I'd like GM to take this seriously, this is just a brainstorm. As many of you know, I start some random threads with pretty off-the-wall ideas. This sort of creativity could bring new life to GM. Regardless of any criticism, I will keep proposing this sort of idea because this is what brought some of us to GM. Compare this idea to the classic COPOs or the 1LE and tell me they're so different. Shakespeare posed an important question: what's in a name? To enthusiasts, the word Camaro is important, but would you sacrifice the word Camaro to have one of 1,999 annually built Chevrolet LS9-M6 (engine-transmission) configurations? What would you pay for it? I already know you want it. You've driven cars with these configurations. You've bought them in the aftermarket, and this is no replacement for the expertise of professional performance tuners. It is, however, an idea that might give us something that we don't have today: a factory super Camaro, covered by a GM warranty; a rarity; a collector's special edition if you're lucky enough to get your hands on one.

Don't bother telling me GM won't do it. I already know the idea is crazy, but leave the decision-making to the same guys that allowed our Camaro to hit production. They seem to like crazy, good ideas.
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Old 01-30-2010, 08:00 PM   #30
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Do it like the place making TA's buy 2000 new ones one bunch, mod n warranty the work yourself.

And have all 2000 pre titled, so they pass EPA, then only sell in places with no or little EPA checks.
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Old 01-30-2010, 08:25 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndgenz28 View Post
Do it like the place making TA's buy 2000 new ones one bunch, mod n warranty the work yourself.

And have all 2000 pre titled, so they pass EPA, then only sell in places with no or little EPA checks.
You are confusing what is legal, and what is in violation of the Federal EPA Laws.

Just because one might not have emissions testing in their area, does not make a part or product emissions compliant - or legal. And for the shop doing the work, they would be the ones on the hook

For those new to the game, please check out the following link about the Clean Air Act of 1990: http://www.epa.gov/air/caa

I remember in 1990, thinking how the big crackdown was coming. Most shops still widely ignore the CAA of 1990. Check out the following:

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§ 7522. Prohibited acts


(a) Enumerated prohibitions
The following acts and the causing thereof are prohibited—
(1) in the case of a manufacturer of new motor vehicles or new motor vehicle engines for distribution in commerce, the sale, or the offering for sale, or the introduction, or delivery for introduction, into commerce, or (in the case of any person, except as provided by regulation of the Administrator), the importation into the United States, of any new motor vehicle or new motor vehicle engine, manufactured after the effective date of regulations under this part which are applicable to such vehicle or engine unless such vehicle or engine is covered by a certificate of conformity issued (and in effect) under regulations prescribed under this part or part C in the case of clean-fuel vehicles (except as provided in subsection (b) of this section);
(2)
(A) for any person to fail or refuse to permit access to or copying of records or to fail to make reports or provide information required under section 7542 of this title;
(B) for any person to fail or refuse to permit entry, testing or inspection authorized under section 7525 (c) of this title or section 7542 of this title;
(C) for any person to fail or refuse to perform tests, or have tests performed as required under section 7542 of this title;
(D) for any manufacturer to fail to make information available as provided by regulation under section 7521 (m)(5) of this title;
(3)
(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser; or
(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell, or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use; or...

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§ 7524. Civil penalties

(a) Violations
Any person who violates sections [1] 7522(a)(1), 7522(a)(4), or 7522(a)(5) of this title or any manufacturer or dealer who violates section 7522 (a)(3)(A) of this title shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $25,000.

Any person other than a manufacturer or dealer who violates section 7522 (a)(3)(A) of this title or any person who violates section 7522 (a)(3)(B) of this title shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $2,500.

Any such violation with respect to paragraph (1), (3)(A), or (4) of section 7522 (a) of this title shall constitute a separate offense with respect to each motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine. Any such violation with respect to section 7522 (a)(3)(B) of this title shall constitute a separate offense with respect to each part or component. Any person who violates section 7522 (a)(2) of this title shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $25,000 per day of violation.


(b) Civil actions
The Administrator may commence a civil action to assess and recover any civil penalty under subsection (a) of this section, section 7545 (d) of this title, or section 7547 (d) of this title. Any action under this subsection may be brought in the district court of the United States for the district in which the violation is alleged to have occurred or in which the defendant resides or has the Administrator’s principal place of business, and the court shall have jurisdiction to assess a civil penalty. In determining the amount of any civil penalty to be assessed under this subsection, the court shall take into account the gravity of the violation, the economic benefit or savings (if any) resulting from the violation, the size of the violator’s business, the violator’s history of compliance with this subchapter, action taken to remedy the violation, the effect of the penalty on the violator’s ability to continue in business, and such other matters as justice may require. In any such action, subpoenas for witnesses who are required to attend a district court in any district may run into any other district.
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Old 01-30-2010, 08:49 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndgenz28 View Post
Do it like the place making TA's buy 2000 new ones one bunch, mod n warranty the work yourself.

And have all 2000 pre titled, so they pass EPA, then only sell in places with no or little EPA checks.
Blur is saying have the blocks numbers matching though, why not just mod your own? We want an Ls-7 that would be numbers matching. And from GM.
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Old 01-30-2010, 09:08 PM   #33
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Dealers use to be able to get unstamped engines.
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Old 01-30-2010, 09:10 PM   #34
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Dealers use to be able to get unstamped engines.
But it wouldn't be original, I could get a block restamped.
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Old 01-30-2010, 09:19 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by shank0668 View Post
But it wouldn't be original, I could get a block restamped.
In the ultra picky high priced Buick world on what is original, long as it was a dealer ordered replacement motor, its flies as real.
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Old 01-30-2010, 09:28 PM   #36
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Hey shank I like your hood.. Pretty nice huh chris
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Old 01-30-2010, 09:32 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndgenz28 View Post
In the ultra picky high priced Buick world on what is original, long as it was a dealer ordered replacement motor, its flies as real.
They usually do not hold their value as well.
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Hey shank I like your hood.. Pretty nice huh chris
Thanks. Jinx is a beast!
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:20 PM   #38
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Manufacturing passenger vehicles in 2010 is much different than manufacturing in 1967. There are a multitude of aspects that MUST be considered before any changes are made in modern automobiles. Throwing an LS9 or an LSX-based engine in a Camaro is NOT as simple as a bolt-in and retune. The weight of an iron block or supercharger will change the handling dynamics of the vehicle. So along with changing spring and anti-roll bar rates, then you have to change the way the traction control systems work. After you spend thousands of high-dollar engineer hours on that, then you have to ship pilots to the desert and the Yukon for validation testing. What if the cooling system for the LS3/L99 is inadequate for the new engine? Back to the drawing board.

Unlike 1967, customers in 2010 won't put up with a car that boils over in gridlock and handles like an overloaded Chevette. Customers also expect a 100,000 mile powetrain warranty and never having to use it. If you have a small boutique car company like Saleen or Callaway, GM will happily supply bodies-in-white or stripped down models through their specialty vehicles group for modification, but no factory installed LS9, LSX, or LSA and no factory warranty.
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:22 PM   #39
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If they were to make it it's own model to get around the legalease. Wouldn't they still have to crash test it again as a seperate model? Also wouldn't that loophole only apply to Manufacturers and not Models? I would love the idea of picking your engine but Fbodfather explained why stuff like this just isn't possible any more when he was asked recently. Basically the more options you have the bigger a chance you have for mistakes and quality issues. So by reducing the # of options the product is better because a person only needs to do the same task over and over as opposed to doing it 6 or 7 different ways. The 4th gen had so many possible combinations that you could generate well over a million different combos with out a duplicate. Yenko originally installed engines at his shop but it cost to much because the cars had engines already. He was able to convince GM through the COPO system to install the engines at the factory which was much cheaper and an easier sell. Today with JIT I don't think it's feasable to do anymore. If people want a special car with a particular setup the just need to get it through SLP, Hennesy, Nicky Chicago, Whoever else. All are backed by a warranty and at least the ones I've listed will hold their value like the old cars did. As far as being #'s matching an SLP car is ordered through your dealer so I'd imagine it would qualify. It would be insane if you could dump a duramax into a Camaro and then add propane injection for an easy 1000 HP (it's very easy to do) but again it's just not possible. We can dream though.
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Old 01-30-2010, 11:35 PM   #40
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If GM can make a limited run, although expensive ZR-1 Corvette, and still make money on it, they could do the same on a different vehicle. But all sorts of interesting questions arise about the balance of performance/price points across their models lines.
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Old 01-30-2010, 11:42 PM   #41
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I would love to see GM pursue what you are proposing here, Blur. It would not be like these cars would be sitting on the lot. They be sold before they even hit any showroom floor. Look how well Ford does with the FR500CJ stock eliminator. They are pretty much sold before they even leave the factory. I would love to see GM build a stock eliminator Camaro with an LS7 powerplant. Both Ford and Dodge did it.
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Old 01-31-2010, 12:17 AM   #42
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Guys, you're all bringing up valid points, but you've missed the biggest point of them all. This is just a suggestion. There are lots of kinks to work out, but wouldn't you want the option of a different powerplant? Everyone is complaining about the lack of Z28, but some of those same members enter this thread criticizing an idea that could provide the same options. It's as if you want a badge more than you want a fast car. If you want the badge so badly, here you go.

Now, a few of you have argued that this is impossible for a variety of reasons. There are simple solutions for most of these problems, so I will itemize them.

Safety
This car would have to be safe. In order to do that GM would do crash testing to verify that it met safety standards. That wasn't so hard. Let's move on.

Emissions
The technicality requires that this be a car different from the Camaro. In essence, GM must rebadge it as something else in order to minimize the cost of production. GM does own a variety of names known for performance that would suffice for such a product that would see substantially lower production than the Camaro. What was the name of that storied brand that GM killed with a history of performance vehicles? Make the car a special order with limited production available at select GM dealers.

Production
This section is negotiable. I just thought this was a good idea. Production would be limited to a low enough number that the EPA and other applicable agencies would not emissions test it. GM builds a car on the assembly line with all the other cars. GM does not install the engine or the transmission. GM ships the car, engine, and transmission to a dealer. The dealer installs the custom parts. Continue this story in the next section.

Sales
The dealer has just paid a bunch of labor in the process of putting together the car. Now, the dealer sells the car at a high enough price to pay for that and get a profit. Why would I suggest this? Dealers need an incentive to order the car. For this reason, these custom products would have to be worthy of markups. If we don't give dealers an incentive to order this, no one would have one, and that would suck.

Matching Numbers
There's been such a negative response to this idea that you can forget I mentioned it.
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