This paint is driving me INSANE!

[Junkman2008]

Originally Posted by OBSSEST

I'm all for spending hundreds of dollars on detail products, but I'm also always game for trying new things. I have a bit of a problem with the idea that all over the counter products are worthless. That's just NOT the case. I am NOT devoted to any line of products, and I agree there is ALOT of garbage out there, but there are also many excellent products available at your auto parts or Walmart store.

Currently, FOR THE CAMARO, I have found that Meguiar's 205 polish is far superior to Adam's swirl and haze remover. I have spent hundreds trying many different product lines and I gotta say, the 205 is THE BEST swirl remover, regardless of price. If I have a scratch, I go with Meguiar's #105, then #205, then I top it off with either NXT 2.0 or Meguiar's high tech yellow #26 wax.

For me, I've found that the Adam's DETAIL SPRAY, Waterless wash towels, and small Wash Mitt are the BEST products of their kind, regarless of price, and I won't switch to anything else unless I find something better.

My point is... you don't have to stay with every product within a line. Some will work for you, and others will not. Don't just do what everybody else does. There's no need to spend $500 to get started. Get yourself a PC polisher for $200 and then get a few polishes and pads to start trying things out.

Dang, I tried to make this short but I blew it big time. Forgive me, but here goes War & Peace, the short version!

Some of what you say is true, but you are totally missing the most important aspect of paint correction. Allow me to divulge.

First off, you are probably correct in saying that no one manufacturer has the best of everything. I can pretty much agree with you there, although you and I have not bought everything offered by every manufacturer and thoroughly tested and documented them to be sure. Thus, we are basing our opinion on probability, not actual facts. If I were a betting man, I would bet that our opinion is for the most part correct.

You compared two products by name, that being SHR and M205. You stated that M205 has more cut than SHR. That is totally incorrect. You called it a swirl remover when in fact it is a finishing polish. Swirl removing polishes need to be followed with a less aggressive polish in order to clean up the damage that a swirl removing polish usually leaves behind. I use M105 and M205 and I can tell you for a fact that SHR has more cut than M205. I know that from the cut that is listed on the bottle of M205 and from plenty of experience in the use of both products. M105 may be a different story but M205 is a finishing polish, as in the last polish you would use before going to wax. It is the last polish you finish with and that's why I call it a finishing polish or last step polish. It can be used to remove minor scratches and swirls, buy not major damage as what you see in this picture:



That's going to require SHR or M105.

Another thing that I must address is technique. I have seen guys use what was touted as the best stuff that money could buy and then claim the stuff was garbage. There was nothing wrong with the product they were using, but everything was wrong with their technique. I like to use golf clubs for a perfect example. Tiger Woods himself could give you every golf club that he has used to win PGA championships but if your swing sucks, so will your score. It has nothing to do with the clubs, and everything to do with your swing. I can take the worst, over the counter paint correcting product and have better results than a novice who has never done this before using the best stuff known to man. That's because technique trumps product every time. That's also why I can get the same results using a multitude of quality product. Some quality products may work faster or different than others, but the end result will be the same using a correct technique.

Now here's another area that you have totally neglected to mention. Preventive maintenance. The cost of your paint correcting products does not only include the polish and waxes, it also includes the necessary equipment to keep you from damaging your paint again after it has been corrected. If the only things you buy are what you need to fix your paint, then the things that you did to damage the paint in the first place will continue to happen! So the polishing aspect of paint correction is only one part of the solution. You also need the necessary products and equipment to properly wash and maintain the paint. That's a totally different expense, and is why your initial purchase of a complete paint correction kit can be rather daunting. It's not just about fixing the paint, it is also about maintaining the paint.

Keep in mind that removing damage from your paint consist of removing the damaged clear coat (or paint for older cars with no clear coat). Cars are coming out with less and less clear coat from the factory. Thus, you only want to remove the least amount of clear coat as possible. The complete paint correction process should only be performed once in the life of your paint job. This is NOT something that you should be doing every week, month, quarter or year. You fix it ONCE, and then properly maintain it from that point forward. Sure, you will pick up some occasional damage here and there but that damage will not require an all out assault on your paint (as the initial damage required), if you are maintaining it correctly. Thus, you will not have to purchase most this equipment and products over and over again.

Now let's address product loyalty. There is absolutely nothing wrong with aligning your allegiance to one product line if they offer you exactly what you are looking for. If the products meet your expectations, the customer service is top notch, the products are shipped to you in a timely manner and any issue you may experience is resolved with no questions asked, then I can see someone aligning with that company and only choosing to spend their money with them. I however offer a more technical reason to align within a companies product line. That would be in the area of a company's polishes.

I'll keep this simple and only use the two companies that you mentioned. SHR and M105 have the same purpose. Fine Machine Polish (FMP) and M205 have the same purpose. However, I would never take SHR and follow it with M205. Why not? Because SHR and FMP have been engineered to work together just as M105 and M205 have been engineered to work together. The scientist who did the countless hours of research and development to come up with these products, designed them to be used within their family. M205 was designed to follow M105. FMP was designed to follow SHR. So when it comes to polishes, you don't mix the brands. You can use anyone's leather cleaner with anyone's glass cleaner but stay within the family when dealing with polishes and waxes. Those scientist know way more about this stuff than we'll ever know. Allow their research to work for you instead of second guessing them. They have blazed the trail. All you have to do is walk it.

Now let's talk about over the counter products. Not all OTC products are garbage. I AGREE.

Now explain this: Why does Meguiar's have a consumer line and a professional line, if the products are equal in performance? Also, why does Meguiar's offer the consumer line on every shelf across America and abroad but only offer their professional line via the web or at a Mirror Glaze distributorship? If the product were totally equal in performance, durability and quality, don't you think that all of the professionals who use the Meguiar's professional products would opt for the cheaper and more readily available consumer stuff? I would, but the reality is, the consumer stuff they offer is NOT as good as their professional stuff. Meguiar's does not allow their professional stuff to set on a shelf next to Nu-Finish and Turtle Wax. Neither does Adam's, Zaino, Dodo Juice, Menzerna, Griot's, and 3M. You have to get that stuff via the web or at a professional auto body shop type store. There is a reason this stuff cost more. It cost more to manufacture. The stuff you see OTC is based on one thing. PRICE. It is priced to move and that is the bottom line. Thus OTC products are OTC for a reason and when most of it is compared to a professional product in the same category, the professional product is going to outperform every time.

With all that said, the initial investment into paint correction can be expensive if you truly understand what the entire picture consist of. The big picture is what most novices fail to understand. Hopfully, that is a lot more clear now.

By the way, you can get a PC-7424XP for around $109-$120, not $200. With kits being offered today like mine, the PC is priced even cheaper than that.

[Chrisrp454]

OK Junkman, for a daily driver this seems costly, what do you suggest for keeping a DD looking best it can?
Thanks

Originally Posted by Junkman2008

Dang, I tried to make this short but I blew it big time. Forgive me, but here goes War & Peace, the short version!

Some of what you say is true, but you are totally missing the most important aspect of paint correction. Allow me to divulge.

First off, you are probably correct in saying that no one manufacturer has the best of everything. I can pretty much agree with you there, although you and I have not bought everything offered by every manufacturer and thoroughly tested and documented them to be sure. Thus, we are basing our opinion on probability, not actual facts. If I were a betting man, I would bet that our opinion is for the most part correct.

You compared two products by name, that being SHR and M205. You stated that M205 has more cut than SHR. That is totally incorrect. You called it a swirl remover when in fact it is a finishing polish. Swirl removing polishes need to be followed with a less aggressive polish in order to clean up the damage that a swirl removing polish usually leaves behind. I use M105 and M205 and I can tell you for a fact that SHR has more cut than M205. I know that from the cut that is listed on the bottle of M205 and from plenty of experience in the use of both products. M105 may be a different story but M205 is a finishing polish, as in the last polish you would use before going to wax. It is the last polish you finish with and that's why I call it a finishing polish or last step polish. It can be used to remove minor scratches and swirls, buy not major damage as what you see in this picture:



That's going to require SHR or M105.

Another thing that I must address is technique. I have seen guys use what was touted as the best stuff that money could buy and then claim the stuff was garbage. There was nothing wrong with the product they were using, but everything was wrong with their technique. I like to use golf clubs for a perfect example. Tiger Woods himself could give you every golf club that he has used to win PGA championships but if your swing sucks, so will your score. It has nothing to do with the clubs, and everything to do with your swing. I can take the worst, over the counter paint correcting product and have better results than a novice who has never done this before using the best stuff known to man. That's because technique trumps product every time. That's also why I can get the same results using a multitude of quality product. Some quality products may work faster or different than others, but the end result will be the same using a correct technique.

Now here's another area that you have totally neglected to mention. Preventive maintenance. The cost of your paint correcting products does not only include the polish and waxes, it also includes the necessary equipment to keep you from damaging your paint again after it has been corrected. If the only things you buy are what you need to fix your paint, then the things that you did to damage the paint in the first place will continue to happen! So the polishing aspect of paint correction is only one part of the solution. You also need the necessary products and equipment to properly wash and maintain the paint. That's a totally different expense, and is why your initial purchase of a complete paint correction kit can be rather daunting. It's not just about fixing the paint, it is also about maintaining the paint.

Keep in mind that removing damage from your paint consist of removing the damaged clear coat (or paint for older cars with no clear coat). Cars are coming out with less and less clear coat from the factory. Thus, you only want to remove the least amount of clear coat as possible. The complete paint correction process should only be performed once in the life of your paint job. This is NOT something that you should be doing every week, month, quarter or year. You fix it ONCE, and then properly maintain it from that point forward. Sure, you will pick up some occasional damage here and there but that damage will not require an all out assault on your paint (as the initial damage required), if you are maintaining it correctly. Thus, you will not have to purchase most this equipment and products over and over again.

Now let's address product loyalty. There is absolutely nothing wrong with aligning your allegiance to one product line if they offer you exactly what you are looking for. If the products meet your expectations, the customer service is top notch, the products are shipped to you in a timely manner and any issue you may experience is resolved with no questions asked, then I can see someone aligning with that company and only choosing to spend their money with them. I however offer a more technical reason to align within a companies product line. That would be in the area of a company's polishes.

I'll keep this simple and only use the two companies that you mentioned. SHR and M105 have the same purpose. Fine Machine Polish (FMP) and M205 have the same purpose. However, I would never take SHR and follow it with M205. Why not? Because SHR and FMP have been engineered to work together just as M105 and M205 have been engineered to work together. The scientist who did the countless hours of research and development to come up with these products, designed them to be used within their family. M205 was designed to follow M105. FMP was designed to follow SHR. So when it comes to polishes, you don't mix the brands. You can use anyone's leather cleaner with anyone's glass cleaner but stay within the family when dealing with polishes and waxes. Those scientist know way more about this stuff than we'll ever know. Allow their research to work for you instead of second guessing them. They have blazed the trail. All you have to do is walk it.

Now let's talk about over the counter products. Not all OTC products are garbage. I AGREE.

Now explain this: Why does Meguiar's have a consumer line and a professional line, if the products are equal in performance? Also, why does Meguiar's offer the consumer line on every shelf across America and abroad but only offer their professional line via the web or at a Mirror Glaze distributorship? If the product were totally equal in performance, durability and quality, don't you think that all of the professionals who use the Meguiar's professional products would opt for the cheaper and more readily available consumer stuff? I would, but the reality is, the consumer stuff they offer is NOT as good as their professional stuff. Meguiar's does not allow their professional stuff to set on a shelf next to Nu-Finish and Turtle Wax. Neither does Adam's, Zaino, Dodo Juice, Menzerna, Griot's, and 3M. You have to get that stuff via the web or at a professional auto body shop type store. There is a reason this stuff cost more. It cost more to manufacture. The stuff you see OTC is based on one thing. PRICE. It is priced to move and that is the bottom line. Thus OTC products are OTC for a reason and when most of it is compared to a professional product in the same category, the professional product is going to outperform every time.

With all that said, the initial investment into paint correction can be expensive if you truly understand what the entire picture consist of. The big picture is what most novices fail to understand. Hopfully, that is a lot more clear now.

By the way, you can get a PC-7424XP for around $109-$120, not $200. With kits being offered today like mine, the PC is priced even cheaper than that.

[Junkman2008]

Originally Posted by Chrisrp454

OK Junkman, for a daily driver this seems costly, what do you suggest for keeping a DD looking best it can?
Thanks

That is only a question that you can answer.

How I would want my 2010 Camaro to look even though it is my daily driver is night and day from how my 1979 El Camino looks today. You have to take into consideration your time and ability to care for your car. Things like whether or not it is garaged, the amount of time you have for upkeep and how much the appearance of your car means to you in the everyday throws of your life. All of these things and more will affect just what you can or should do. I only know one way and if I am not going to do it that way, then I'm not doing anything.

For me, cars mean a lot. Maybe it's because I grew up around so many at my father's body shop. As a cop, there was one crime that could really bring my wrath an that was seeing someone in a stolen car. To molest another man's pride and joy (in most cases) infuriated me to the max. That is how passionate I am about them. Even those that are not my own.

So what I would do for your daily driver may or may not be realistic for you, but it is well documented on this forum. What you see me do in my videos is exactly what I would do. That's why I open my garage to everyone. I am just as passionate about putting a shine on your car as I am about putting one on mine.

[el ess A]

Suggestion: If you don't want to invest a whole lot of time/money in the correction aspect, take the car to a local professional detailer (check them out first, not the fly by night working in his back yard) to get the initial work done. It may be cheaper to get the paint corrected than to buy the kit and spend a long time doing it yourself, and now the only thing needed is to maintain it.

I don't care WHO you are. Once you see how pretty the Camaro cleans up, you WILL worry about how it looks after that. If you really don't care, then paint it primer black and call it a day.

[Junkman2008]

Originally Posted by el ess X

Suggestion: If you don't want to invest a whole lot of time/money in the correction aspect, take the car to a local professional detailer (check them out first, not the fly by night working in his back yard) to get the initial work done. It may be cheaper to get the paint corrected than to buy the kit and spend a long time doing it yourself, and now the only thing needed is to maintain it.

I don't care WHO you are. Once you see how pretty the Camaro cleans up, you WILL worry about how it looks after that. If you really don't care, then paint it primer black and call it a day.

That may be the route to go.

I will say this. You guys are dealing with cars who's paint can't be in that bad of shape. It should not take you nearly as long to fix your cars as it did my 2001 paint. I had a heck of a head start on how much damage my paint had in it before you guys did so time wise, it should take you a fraction of the time to fix your damage. Maintaining it consist of proper washing. It takes me 2 hours to wash mine but I'm pretty slow. But just as El said, once you see it pop, you'll always want it to pop.

Amen to that bro'!

[WhiteCrane]

Honestly, I am contemplating buying Adam's Essentials Car Detailing Kit.



I want the car to look clean. I don't care for shine. Does Buttery Wax protect paint well, or should I get the Americana Paste as well?

As long as I don't get lime stains, I'm happy.

[CamaroDreams07]

Originally Posted by WhiteCrane

Honestly, I am contemplating buying Adam's Essentials Car Detailing Kit.



I want the car to look clean. I don't care for shine. Does Buttery Wax protect paint well, or should I get the Americana Paste as well?

As long as I don't get lime stains, I'm happy.

The best protection would be Machine Superwax, but that's tricky to apply by hand. I am not sure of the protection comparison between BW and Americana though. Sorry.

[Junkman2008]

Well WhiteCrane, that's an interesting take. If you don't care about the shine, then I can save you some money. You definitely don't need that much of a kit and here's why.

The kit comes with:

Adam's 4.5 Gallon Bucket with Sealed, Spin-Off Lid: Go to Walmart and buy 2, 5 gallon bucket. The key to the buckets that you buy is that the Grit Guard MUST fit all the way down to the bottom of the buckets and not spin around. If it does then those buckets are useless.

Adam's Great White Drying Towel: I would use a leaf blower instead.

Adam's Professional Wash Pad: Check.

Adam's Car Wash Shampoo (16oz): Check.

Adam's All-Purpose Cleaner (16oz): Check. You can use this on your wheels, or just use your wash soap and some elbow grease. It depends on how dirty your wheels get.

Adam's Detail Spray(16oz): Check. You can never have to much of this stuff. You can use it to assist you with drying the car if you dry by hand. This is one of the best detail sprays on the planet.

Adam's Detail Clay Bar (200 grams): If you are not worried about obtaining a shine, don't bother because once you clay, you need to follow that step with polishing the paint.

Adam's Super VRT (16oz): Dressing for your tires if you want them to look black.

Adam's Swirl and Haze Remover (SHR) (16oz): Is the first polish in this kit for fixing paint and making it shine. You won't need this.

Adam's Revive Fine Hand Polish (16oz): Is the second polish in this kit that follows SHR in the paint polishing method. You won't need this either.

Adam's Buttery Wax (16oz): Is the wax that you apply after you finish polishing the paint. It has the least amount of protection than all the Adam's waxes. You can go with Americana instead and get a much longer lasting protection but the Machine Superwax is the longest lasting protection that Adam's has. It is a sealant.

2 Double Soft Plush Microfiber Towel: Check. The only thing that I would use these for is to remove wax. Nothing else.

Foam Flip Pad: Used to work SHR and Revive Polishes. You won't need.

Hex Grip Buttery Wax Applicator: Won't need if you go with Americana as it cones with its own applicator.

2 Adam's Super Block Dressing applicator Sponges: Used to apply VRT to the tires. That's up to you.

Adam's Grit Guard Bucket Insert: Check. You need 2 of these and 2 buckets that they will properly fit. VERY important.


Now you also need a foam gun, which can be found at Amazon, AutoGeek or eBay. If you are not going to polish your paint, it will get duller and duller as time goes on. Thus, you have got to make sure that you don't continue to damage the paint by washing the car wrong. The foam gun is a very important part of that whole process.

Now why you would go this route is totally befuddling to me. I would go with a kit that included a polisher and do your paint justice. But if a shine is not important to you, there is no need for you to be spending more money than necessary. Maybe you should just get the 2 bucket wash kit and some wax and call it the day. It's a shame you ain't close to me. I'd make a fender on your car shine like glass and once you saw how simple it was, you'd buy my kit and become a detailing junkie.

Then you'd kick yourself for ever thinking about doing it any other way.

[Darth Martel]

I don't understand of buying a car like a Camaro and NOT taking care of it to ensure it looks it's finest. Mine is a daily driver and I care very much how it looks. This car turns heads and gets lots of attention. If you didn't buy it for this reason and just wanted a car to get you from point A to B then why not save a boatload of cash and buy an Aveo? I understand that people are frugal with their money. I know that I don't want to try and dictate how someone spends their money. I can't remember what you bought whether it was an SS or one of the V6's but, my guess is you spent in the neighborhood of $30k and possibly up to $40k+ for your car. Why not spend the extra $500 and ensure that your $30k+ car looks as good as possible and to take care of it? I work for GM and I consider myself an ambassador considering how high profile a vehicle the Camaro is for them. When people see my car they practically get whiplash turning their heads to see how amazing it looks. I constantly get people pulling up along side of me and giving me a thumbs up or rolling their window down to tell me how much they like my car. I take pride in my car as how I take care of it reflects on me. If that's something you don't care about then fine. To each his/her own. But, then again, we're back to the question of why did you buy a Camaro to begin with?

[Duflar]

Originally Posted by WhiteCrane

I did!

The detail spray was used extensively while claying the car!!!

Can someone tell me why my WAX is coming off the paint, and it does t on my friends car? We used the SAME WAX! his car is silk smooth with wax to the touch, mine is grainy like sheet metal... The car is parked, I haven't driven it and there's no sprinklers!

What is going on?!

Your friend is letting you do all the work then swapping cars with you? JK

[WhiteCrane]

Thanks Junkman. Perhaps in the future I will consider applying polish by hand after claying. As it is, I DID clay the car prior to apply my paint sealant. It's definitely a possibility in the future.

For now, if I can just get ride of the dirt and constant water spotting, I'll be happy.

[Notneb]

I can't wait to detail the living sh!t out of my car after watching Junkman's handywork!!! I can only dream about the shine my black camaro will take Just need a warm day and a few hours :p

[Iomcamaro]

Originally Posted by WhiteCrane

Thanks Junkman. Perhaps in the future I will consider applying polish by hand after claying. As it is, I DID clay the car prior to apply my paint sealant. It's definitely a possibility in the future.

For now, if I can just get ride of the dirt and constant water spotting, I'll be happy.

Have you ordered anything yet?

[WhiteCrane]

No, but I have a paycheck coming in a week. Did you have a suggestion?