New to Forced Induction? Gale Banks talks about FI (Boost).

[MerF]

Originally Posted by gtahvit

For the kind of power I'm talking about I don't really want all the complications of Turbo. Having said that, if I were to go 700 plus and money was no object... I'd have a small block Banks TT setup without question.

You're actually backwards. For quick and simple power, it's about bolting on a little S/C and away you go...but that's as good as it's gonna get for you. No upgrading once you hit the limits of that S/C (smallest pulley possible). For large numbers it's turbo for "simplicity".

Originally Posted by smike07

...but mine will have at least 500 horses before I tack on any type of forced induction stuff.

If you're making changes that boost your HP n/a then you may be making your engine less capable of high numbers from forced induction. Remember, you are limited by octane and engine strength, and if you're already making changes (Heads/pistons/cams/valves) that are upping the stresses then FI will do nothing because you don't have farther to go. To get real improvement from an FI engine, you actually do the opposite...make the engine have less power so you can exponentially add more with FI.

Originally Posted by gtahvit

It just makes me a little more comfortable when I shut down the motor, everything is shut down. While turbos will continue to spin and will require oil to cool them off. If I'm not mistaken some turbo kits won't let you shut off the motor until the turbos are cool enough.

Urban legend brought about by F&F. Think about any turbo application factory car ever. Have you EVER heard of a factory car needing cooldown time? No, because it's a farce. The only exception is if you're stupid enough to make a WOT throttle run for 5 minutes (road race for example) then just shut down without idling and letting all the temps cool down. But that's going to effect more than just the turbo(s), so it's just common sense.

Originally Posted by radz282003

I just believe there is more mechanical control over a supercharger, therefor, easier not to allow to get out of hand (overboost, creep, etc.)

There's actually ZERO mechanical control of a S/C. It spins the same speed no matter what and there's no way to control the amount of pressure it is punching into the engine. You get what you get every time, period. Sounds fine at a glance, and will be to most...but not this tuner.

My Supra had a shitty EBC (Electronic Boost Controller), which I hated, but only because the model I was using was bad. That being said, the neatness of it was the settings I had for it. If I were using a serious build, and was at the track often where I had access to 116 octane, I could up my boost to tune the car to levels that were attainable with such high octane fuel. At the push of a button I could let the turbo spool up to 30 PSI and make 700+ rwhp. Then when I was done, just press it again and the EBC opens the wastegate nice and early and I'm making a subtle 550 rwhp again on 20-22 PSI on pump gas. I can also tune how sharp my torque curve was (handy for Supras with light asses that can't get traction) so I could incorporate creep into my boost so the HP/TQ curve wasn't as sharp and I could get traction...or I could just have it spike and hold and control it with throttle (which admittedly is horrible on a turbo application).

The point of all that madness is none of it it possible with a S/C. As far as preference, that's all up to you, and I'm not trying to sway you (ok maybe a little, but I'm a turbo junkie)...but if you're just wrong about how you think turbos work, I'm obligated to correct it.

[GTAHVIT]

Bold.

Originally Posted by gtahvit

I'm looking for 600 RWHP, and I love the sound of a twin screw supercharger. I'm gonna have trouble getting 600 to the ground anyway. For the kind of power I'm talking about I don't really want all the complications of Turbo. Having said that, if I were to go 700 plus and money was no object... I'd have a small block Banks TT setup without question.

Originally Posted by MerF

You're actually backwards. For quick and simple power, it's about bolting on a little S/C and away you go...but that's as good as it's gonna get for you. No upgrading once you hit the limits of that S/C (smallest pulley possible). For large numbers it's turbo for "simplicity".

Uhh I think we agree. I thought you and I said the same thing? Except for the I got it backwards part. I didn't say that....

Urban legend brought about by F&F. Think about any turbo application factory car ever. Have you EVER heard of a factory car needing cooldown time? No, because it's a farce. The only exception is if you're stupid enough to make a WOT throttle run for 5 minutes (road race for example) then just shut down without idling and letting all the temps cool down. But that's going to effect more than just the turbo(s), so it's just common sense.

I totally get this and I didn't correctly characterize this scenario in my earlier post.

Can you help me understand why you say

For large numbers it's turbo for "simplicity".

[MerF]

Originally Posted by gtahvit

Can you help me understand why you say

Basically once you start getting into superchargers that make big numbers, you're gonna end up paying a lot more and once again you get what you get. A turbocharged car can be tuned that with the flip of a button on the dash it is as mild as the factory car next to it (by not allowing the turbo to spool up), or to go all out and make huge numbers if the time is right. A SC is the same no matter what, and if you want to make 700 rwhp you're gonna need 93+ Octane in it all the time because it's always going to make that power when you floor it.

So in essence, the turbo is "simpler" in that it can make a wide range of horsepower with one setup, where you'de need several setups in a SC to accomplish the same.

[Kyle2k]

Originally Posted by MerF

A SC is the same no matter what, and if you want to make 700 rwhp you're gonna need 93+ Octane in it all the time because it's always going to make that power when you floor it.

That is true, unless of course you want to change the S/C pulley...fun fun.

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by MerF

You're actually backwards. For quick and simple power, it's about bolting on a little S/C and away you go...but that's as good as it's gonna get for you. No upgrading once you hit the limits of that S/C (smallest pulley possible). For large numbers it's turbo for "simplicity".

If you're making changes that boost your HP n/a then you may be making your engine less capable of high numbers from forced induction. Remember, you are limited by octane and engine strength, and if you're already making changes (Heads/pistons/cams/valves) that are upping the stresses then FI will do nothing because you don't have farther to go. To get real improvement from an FI engine, you actually do the opposite...make the engine have less power so you can exponentially add more with FI.

you dont HAVE to do the opposite, but if you are building a motor for FI, dont expect a lot of power N/A... unless you are GM and you have an LS9. with s/c= 650, w/o s/c=535

Urban legend brought about by F&F. Think about any turbo application factory car ever. Have you EVER heard of a factory car needing cooldown time? No, because it's a farce. The only exception is if you're stupid enough to make a WOT throttle run for 5 minutes (road race for example) then just shut down without idling and letting all the temps cool down. But that's going to effect more than just the turbo(s), so it's just common sense.

true point, but how many times do you (maybe not you personally, but someone you ride with) jump in a turbo'd car in a hurry, fire it up, and scoot off? or come home after cruisin around and park it and shut it off. without giving it any time to idle and cool? tho it might not need a lot of time to cool on a stock setup, the bigger you go, the more care needs taken when operating. me for instance, i start my car up before i go to work and i let it idle till it comes out of open loop

There's actually ZERO mechanical control of a S/C. It spins the same speed no matter what and there's no way to control the amount of pressure it is punching into the engine. You get what you get every time, period. Sounds fine at a glance, and will be to most...but not this tuner.

the mechanical control over the s/c that he's talking about is the fact that when you let off the pedal, the s/c slows down at the same rate as the motor. which brings me to my next point, a s/c does not spin the same speed no matter what, if it did, then it wouldnt be worth a damn, at low rpms, you would overload the motor with too much air, or at high speed you wouldnt get enough air. a s/c spins at a speed proportional to engine speed.... its driven off the engine belt... period. it is fine, because as your rpms climb so does your boost. you arent running full boost at idle in a s/c car. trust me.

My Supra had a shitty EBC (Electronic Boost Controller), which I hated, but only because the model I was using was bad. That being said, the neatness of it was the settings I had for it. If I were using a serious build, and was at the track often where I had access to 116 octane, I could up my boost to tune the car to levels that were attainable with such high octane fuel. At the push of a button I could let the turbo spool up to 30 PSI and make 700+ rwhp. Then when I was done, just press it again and the EBC opens the wastegate nice and early and I'm making a subtle 550 rwhp again on 20-22 PSI on pump gas. I can also tune how sharp my torque curve was (handy for Supras with light asses that can't get traction) so I could incorporate creep into my boost so the HP/TQ curve wasn't as sharp and I could get traction...or I could just have it spike and hold and control it with throttle (which admittedly is horrible on a turbo application).

boost controllers rock dont they? btw, could you pm me (or post up here) your specs on your supra. and yes, im serious. i love seeing how import tuners build their motors when they are pushing that kind of power.

The point of all that madness is none of it it possible with a S/C. As far as preference, that's all up to you, and I'm not trying to sway you (ok maybe a little, but I'm a turbo junkie)...but if you're just wrong about how you think turbos work, I'm obligated to correct it.

the point is, have you ever driven a car with a serious s/c? i know you are a turbo junkie, but i think you need to do a little more reading about s/c's and not just turbos. nearly everything you run with a turbo is possible with a s/c.

[MerF]

I sold the car years ago...I've posted vidoes of it here and there and I'll PM you that link. The set-up on my personal car was basic (sorta)...in Supra terminology, it was an APU+ car.