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Old 12-31-2017, 02:06 PM   #29
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Tesla has already revolutionized the car industry. Everyone has reacted to his vehicles and he has already lasted much longer than many expected. I would be shocked if they completely fold. That being said I will also be shocked if he actually makes his production target with any sort of quality over the next few years. As others have mentioned Tesla already has significant quality issues with the expensive cars. Building a cheaper and higher volume model is only going to magnify those problems.

The apple comparison is on point. There are plenty of people who are who are in love with the brand and will put up with a lot to have a part of that. I think once the model 3s start making it into the hands of people who truly rely on their cars as their only form of transportation, some of the shine will wear off if the quality issues rear their ugly heads. We will see. Hopefully he values quality over the production goals. I don't think he can have both.

I agree with most of this.

When I was growing up, electric vehicles were a "pie in the sky" concept, a couple manufacturers tried to initiate this, but they fell flat on their face.

To start up an entire automotive company, as an EV company, and actually get cars out on the road that are practical, is an absolutely monumental feat IMO. How often do we see a brand new manufacturer start up with any kind of production capability? It's almost unheard of. The most we usually see is some shop hand-crafting a couple cars a year or something like that, not a full-scale production. And the cars are practical. This doesn't mean they are for everyone, as a Mercedes S65 isn't for everyone, but these Tesla EVs can be daily driven, have enough range to work for most trips, can be recharged in many locations, have gotten out of the "science fiction" stage and landed squarely in the "reality" stage. That, in my opinion, is simply amazing. The best part is that the car doesn't care what kind of fuel is used at the power plant, whether it's coal, or natural gas, hydroelectric, wind, tides, solar, fusion, fission, etc. A short aside about natural gas, it's one of the fastest growing sources due to how scale-able it is, how little infrastructure it needs, and how it's surpassed 65% efficiency. You cut out having to ship fuel around everywhere to holding takes with vehicles that in turn use fuel and that required fuel to build in the first place. Delivered to your EV without all the energy-wasting middle-men required to refine and transport gasoline all over the country, it's far more efficient and easier to control the efficiency/pollutants. All of these reasons are why it's a far better idea than hydrogen or any other alternative source.

Undoubtedly, we'll still see gas engines for years, we'll see hybrids more and more (especially in the sports-car world, where you can recover braking energy to slingshot out of turns), but we'll also see a gradual shift to EVs. Battery technology in the development phase right now will be offering many times more storage capacity than the best that Tesla currently offers, around 15 years down the road.

Naysayers always seem to try and throw up some kind of argument that the proponents are going to "flip" some giant switch somewhere in 2020 and all of a sudden the government is going to come and confiscate your gas engines and there will be infrastructure. The thing about electric is that there already IS infrastructure (as opposed to hydrogen) and it will continue to get upgraded through the years as more and more EVs are built, there will not be some date where all of a sudden everything is EV, it will just be a gradual change that is likely to not finish through any of our lifetimes, due to many industries and applications where it will take significant further technology and development.

I think a lot of it also has to do with fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of something different. Who knows what the future holds exactly, maybe we'll be able to download new maps to increase performance, or have some kind of safe over-charge function, or whatever, we really don't know, but I think this lack of information/knowledge really scares some people and makes them hold on more tightly to what they know.

Tesla will most likely survive, but they are facing a big challenge. They have made practical EVs reality, but they are balancing spreading themselves too thin (to generate investment revenue) with meeting their production goals for what they have agreed to. Elon has his hands in so many things that he can likely shift enough around to keep Tesla on a lifeline, but the delivery of the model 3 needs to happen before we see too many of these truck, roadster and other Tesla ideas.

Tesla is following the same basic steps that any technology manufacturer has followed bringing new technology to the market place. The idea that they are not turning a profit on a specific line at a certain time is not new, it's what has brought you all sort of technological gifts from incorporated companies, but it's subject to that same playing field that can collapse if you spread yourself too thin and can't follow through with your production.
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Old 01-01-2018, 12:30 PM   #30
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Too bad he is struggling to get manufacturing up to snuff....Any former Big3 personnel available to help him out?...lol...He needs to poach a Lee Iaccoca type to crack the whip perhaps and get things going ...lol...

Would be a shame if something with a demand and following like this fizzles out and the US can't step up to the plate and produce a new car line, with potential jobs and economic activity going to waste....I hope he gets it together and his car company is a success.
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Old 01-14-2018, 05:59 PM   #31
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Well whether they make it or not, they have raised the bar for EV.. so everyone has benefited from them. I hope they stay around, because we need some innovators in the industry. If you just leave it up to the big 3 to innovate, it's going to be slow going.
Agreed , Id rather see Ford go under than Tesla . Tesla LLC has one Fatality due to its car design while FORD has Hundreds of thousands in their Pinto. Explorers and other Turds they put on the road.

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GM does it best !
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Old 01-15-2018, 08:17 AM   #32
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IMO, Tesla cars are “feel good” cars for the wealthy. They are not truly practical replacement cars in that traveling long distances is either a pain or a no go. Also, if everyone were to run out and get a plug-in car, the grid couldn’t support it. Everyone I know that has one has multiple vehicles. The others being liquid fueled...big BMWs and Benz’s mostly.

To me, the plug-in car is a technology stepping stone. The drivetrain development is crucial. Next step will be the energy source pack. Maybe the hydrogen fuel cell/battery regenerative hybrid.

Tesla didn’t come out with revolutionary technology. Musk put out a car that would sell by putting luxury and performance together, and went after the deeper pockets.

I think history will reflect on the Prius as being the pivotal car that moved the public toward lower emissions, and that Tesla opened the eyes of the public to the notion that an electric car could be big, fast, good looking, and luxurious (adequately excessive for the wealthy).
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:59 AM   #33
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IMO, Tesla cars are “feel good” cars for the wealthy.
Like sports cars?

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They are not truly practical replacement cars in that traveling long distances is either a pain or a no go. Also, if everyone were to run out and get a plug-in car, the grid couldn’t support it. Everyone I know that has one has multiple vehicles. The others being liquid fueled...big BMWs and Benz’s mostly.
I know this is how you feel, but this is not reality for many people that own these cars. They do drive them long distances. The grid may not be able to support everyone owning one at this time, but it can support some and that's the beauty of it, there is already some infrastructure in place and it will continue to be improved and extended. Unlike hydrogen, which requires huge amounts of energy to extract, has no distribution network, no tanks constructed to hold it, no tanker trucks to move it, and all the energy associated with doing so. People can, and do, operate these cars, driving them every day as their main vehicle. Compared to our history of 115 years of combustion-engine only cars on the road, that's damn impressive.

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To me, the plug-in car is a technology stepping stone. The drivetrain development is crucial. Next step will be the energy source pack. Maybe the hydrogen fuel cell/battery regenerative hybrid.
Unless some big breakthrough allows extraction and STORAGE of hydrogen in ways that beat what we know and foresee, I don't see this happening. It takes a huge amount of energy to extract and store it, which compared to an EV, is a waste of energy. That energy could have been beamed out to electric cars. The beauty of the EV is that it doesn't care what the power source is, coal, natural gas, fusion, fission, wind, tides, solar, geothermal, etc. We do know and foresee battery energy density getting better, with multiple technologies that will increase the density more than 5x over what we currently know.

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Tesla didn’t come out with revolutionary technology. Musk put out a car that would sell by putting luxury and performance together, and went after the deeper pockets.
The fact that he was able to get cars out on the road with reasonable ranges was pretty revolutionary. How many other start-up auto companies do you see with cars on the road from the last 15 years? I see model S and X vehicles operating even up here in Alaska, not to mention all over the place when I travel down south for work. I see as many of those as I do other high end autos, which says they are out there and the technology works. Seriously, it's like you are waving the flag "IT'LL NEVER WORK!" when the cars are already out there driving day to day. I think some people are afraid of the future. Mercedes just released their new E53 cars with the starter/alternator that provides an extra 180lb/ft of torque during acceleration. Expect to see more. BTW, there are some key applications of technology that do make the Tesla possible, there's a good movie I watched on the company and factory start up that explains this.

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I think history will reflect on the Prius as being the pivotal car that moved the public toward lower emissions, and that Tesla opened the eyes of the public to the notion that an electric car could be big, fast, good looking, and luxurious (adequately excessive for the wealthy).
I remember when cell phones were a symbol of the wealthy.
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Old 01-15-2018, 12:29 PM   #34
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Agreed , Id rather see Ford go under than Tesla . Tesla LLC has one Fatality due to its car design while FORD has Hundreds of thousands in their Pinto. Explorers and other Turds they put on the road.

You gotta be able to create , be great and innovate
GM does it best !
GM ignition switch? Vega? Chevette? Old's V8 diesels? Cadillac V-8-6-4? EV1?
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Old 01-15-2018, 12:41 PM   #35
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Agreed , Id rather see Ford go under than Tesla . Tesla LLC has one Fatality due to its car design while FORD has Hundreds of thousands in their Pinto. Explorers and other Turds they put on the road.

You gotta be able to create , be great and innovate
GM does it best !
Do you have any evidence that the Pinto had a higher fatality rate than other cars of the time? Much less hundreds of thousands of people as you say.
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Old 01-15-2018, 12:48 PM   #36
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Do you have any evidence that the Pinto had a higher fatality rate than other cars of the time? Much less hundreds of thousands of people as you say.
More like 27 to 180...

Reports range from 27 to 180 deaths as a result of rear-impact-related fuel tank fires in the Pinto, but given the volume of more than 2.2 million vehicles sold, the death rate was not substantially different from that of vehicles by Ford's competitors. The far more damaging result for Ford was the PR disaster.
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Old 01-15-2018, 01:55 PM   #37
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JNB,
My post was not intended to incite an argument with you. I’m not waving any “no way” flags. I’m just not convinced Musk and his car are the “second coming” and I’m not willing jump into the end to end economics of the Tesla ownership experience, even though one his Model S cars would fit within my budget and within my daily commute needs.

I do know several people that own Model S cars and some have gotten out of them. There are a number of them coworkers drive to my work. All have brought up the issues of “refueling” on cross country trips and the economics. All had gasoline cars in addition to the Tesla. All can afford all the gasoline a 7 Series could burn. A few weeks ago, I watched as a couple waiting for the charge to come up on their Models S at the charging station at Harris Ranch halfway between LA and Frisco. They were there when we arrived for lunch and gas and when we left.

I think the one of the more significant contributions Tesla made is building attractiveness to an electric car. Electric cars have been around for near 100 years. Musk neither invented the electric car, electric motor, nor the lithium battery. All of it was being used in toy cars before he used these components and if he was the first, good on him. But it was going to happen with or without him. In contemporary times, Ford had the EV. It was a bottom feeder econo car. Musk took a different tact and went for the money. He made an electric car cool to own. He’s doubling down on investing in the cool factor by building the proposed roadster. I think it’s a smart move. But really....Tesla stock has a paper a-hole at this time. I’m not buying his cars or his stock.

If you like the Tesla, I wouldn’t think less of you for purchasing one. And yes, I do think they are “ like a sports car”. That’s not a bad thing.
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Old 02-11-2018, 01:26 PM   #38
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A few more recent articles about our friends at Tesla...

https://www.dailybreeze.com/2018/02/...odel-3-delays/


https://www.dailybreeze.com/2018/02/...ears-report-2/
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:38 PM   #39
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What I love is you got a company that is supposed to be a "green" company. What do they do? Burn up tons of rocket fuel just to dump their garbage into space to end up lord knows where. Good job. They are posers just like everyone else claiming to be saving the environment.
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:49 PM   #40
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What I love is you got a company that is supposed to be a "green" company. What do they do? Burn up tons of rocket fuel just to dump their garbage into space to end up lord knows where. Good job. They are posers just like everyone else claiming to be saving the environment.
... and their batteries are made from what? How do they get that material?


https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/break...le-bottleneck/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...m-ion-battery/
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:09 PM   #41
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What I love is you got a company that is supposed to be a "green" company. What do they do? Burn up tons of rocket fuel just to dump their garbage into space...


I thought the exact same thing when I saw all the news articles.
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Old 02-11-2018, 10:33 PM   #42
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I thought the exact same thing when I saw all the news articles.
My wife and I was drinking morning coffee when GMA reported on it. I looked to my wife and said "Wow! So now we praise people for polluting space, and burning up the environment with rock fuel to do it?" Her reply "Only you would think like that" with and eye roll. I'll be glad to show her I wasn't the only one.

I haven't heard a single treehugger complain about this.
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