Heads and cam - Page 3 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

Robbie1227 · 11-04-2016, 08:21 PM

Ok Boys, I did it!
I pulled the trigger on a BTR stage III cam, ported and polished heads by West Coast Heads, a Nick Williams 102 mm throttle body, MSD atomic intake, and a custom tune!
Hoping to see RWHP in the low 600's
Wish me luck!
Should be done in a month, I'll let you know how it goes!
Next track day is Homestead Raceway on 12/10

Qfastvette · 11-05-2016, 03:24 PM

Can't wait to see your results!

andig · 11-05-2016, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L99CAMA2011

Why did they use LS1 injectors?

Greater fuel flow rate than the LS7 injectors.

Stephen12ZL1 · 11-06-2016, 05:58 AM

Probably LSA(ZL1) injectors not LS1.

AG454 · 11-06-2016, 11:26 AM

The LS7 in the Z28 has CNC'ed heads , doesn't it? If so, are you guys really gaining much by replacing them?

hollywdv · 11-06-2016, 12:34 PM

+1 on the results robbie. i've read the stock manifolds flow pretty well but not sure how the cats are going to hold up with your mods and tracking. any plans on LTs?

edit: saw your post on the LT gains thread. disregard question on LT.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

andig · 11-06-2016, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen12ZL1

Probably LSA(ZL1) injectors not LS1.

Yes - my mistake Stephen. I have the injectors from the ZL1

PapaKlutch · 11-06-2016, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AG454

The LS7 in the Z28 has CNC'ed heads , doesn't it? If so, are you guys really gaining much by replacing them?

According to a discussion I saw last year between 2 engine guys/tuners on IG, regarding Z/28's responding better to bolt-on upgrades than any C6 Z06 they had worked on:

"The Z/28 LS7 heads have the LS7 COPO intake CNC port! Makes more power than a C6 ZO6."

Robbie1227 · 11-06-2016, 07:33 PM

I'm not replacing the heads, we're sending them to West Coast Cylinder Heads for what they call a Stage 2 treatment, see below:
"We machine your supplied castings. Price includes hot tank and blast cleaning, installing bronze valve guides, our Stage 2 CNC port program, competition valve job, surface milling and new stainless steel exhaust valves. The titanium intake valves are cleaned, inspected and tumble polished to help reduce valve guide related wear."

I'm dropping off my Z tomorrow, and won't see it for a few weeks. I requested they use my Actual Heads, and not a random set of LS7 heads they have at the shop.
The speed shop does have a core program, where they send out a set of LS7 heads, and simply swap them for yours when they get back from WC heads...I didn't want to do this, so my car will be stored on a lift until they get back after the treatment.

Also, I just realized I never discussed injectors with my speed shop?
Doesnt this level of mod, with all this extra air, require large fuel injectors?
Again, I'm no mechanic, I just live to drive fast!

LS7 Apex · 11-07-2016, 01:35 AM

The thought process seems to be...

Even if the heads are not being replaced... The ratio of cost to gain for the head's machine work are high (not best). A "Stage II" cnc port on Z/28 heads is considered different work than on alternative heads needing it. How much material is left to port on already cncd heads might be worth asking and what are those gains... ~5whp? Serious in question if the try is anywhere close to a legitimate 575+ whp.

Also what needs to happen more is tuning the stock car looking at gains from the tune alone vs gain in the added part. (Hard to do with time and cost and trust to tune without tactic or deceit). Headers for example... Replacing stock headers with aftermarket and tuning again. A 455 rwhp Z/28 may bump to 475-80 with a tune only. Aftermarket headers may account for 35% more whp and give the car 490 rwhp when added. Gains came in a greater amount from a tune with a cost is 1/4 of the headers. Without more air moving through, the headers are a weaker choice for HP gains. Replace induction and cam, the header ratio of cost to gain becomes better and the part becomes more necessary.

Same concept works with the heads. Why not replace them with something that will get ~15whp if combined supporting mods. Otherwise the cost to gain ratio is still a bummer, especially with machine work that should not cost the same on heads with a port already. It is up to the owner but if most items are getting replaced, and if ratios even matter, no one wants to leave hp out. The breakdown is important when places want you to buy headers or pay for machine work.

Squeezing all those horses and the cost gets greater anyway. Ratios aside, the upcoming power should be fun.

Robbie1227 · 11-07-2016, 05:24 AM

The machining of my heads is shown as $1,700 on my proposal, and the option for a set of new, built heads was $3,200, which was 2x that.
I was on the Mast Motorsports site, and a set a LS7 heads seem to run about that much.

Do you think it's worth spending double on the new Racing heads, instead of the port and polish? My speedshop discussed it at a minimum, and didn't think it was with the extra dough. We didn't discuss brand though, just buying Heads vs. machining and rebuilding mine.
Opinions please!

LS7 Apex · 11-07-2016, 11:43 AM

Worth is subjective to you and a predicament when thinking if youll go any further than this setup. The machine work is a choice in the right direction for certain, only it'd be nice to get details of what was gained from it to judge whether you need to go with another head application to take full advantage of the cam. Machine work can be worth it.

Worth example, I would not do headers alone on the Z/28, but I cannot say headers alone are not worth it, unless you say headers with no tune and I say waste of time. In your first setup assume you base lined close to 460 whp stock. You gained 32 whp but what would the car gain from a tune alone? No less than 50% of that was from tune in my opinion. (We'll leave out catted vs not and fuel variables). You made great gains though, and the sound and weight saving are considerable pluses. How can anyone say its not worth it to you? I'm using the header reference so much because it is a common and easy modification and has a thread here.

Another example for fun... Not in absolute. Say no other mods on car... What if a shop said they guarantee you could have your stock heads machined and gain 15whp, or you buy "race" heads and pick up only 5whp. Now, what if you install headers with your race heads and those race heads then give you 20whp plus another 15whp from headers. Is 35whp vs 30whp(machined heads and headers) worth it now? Are you certain the headers can gain 15whp to get 30whp gain with only machined stock heads?

Real scenarios will involve other mods, fuel, comp. ratio, etc. and the tuning to go with it. Nothing is absolute and the variables are rough to predict. Assuming the tuner is all knowing and that variable is null, the thought is how well do the parts work(optimize) together.

Your mod path is exciting, and that's why I am discussing it all. For enjoyment and thrill, seeing what you like and find worth it.

Schlok · 11-07-2016, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie1227

The machining of my heads is shown as $1,700 on my proposal, and the option for a set of new, built heads was $3,200, which was 2x that.
I was on the Mast Motorsports site, and a set a LS7 heads seem to run about that much.

Do you think it's worth spending double on the new Racing heads, instead of the port and polish? My speedshop discussed it at a minimum, and didn't think it was with the extra dough. We didn't discuss brand though, just buying Heads vs. machining and rebuilding mine.
Opinions please!

If you have money to burn then do it. NOT worth it. See my previous post in this thread about the gains for the Mast heads.

Robbie1227 · 11-07-2016, 08:08 PM

Definitely DON'T have money to burn!
It was either more HP or a new, more powerful car!
This is my only hobby, the rest of my existence is my kids and my business.

Figuring this Z is still new and under 3,000 miles, has almost a full SunTek clear wrap, I already did a bunch of mods (see signature) is in mint condition, and is super unique...
It made more sense to drop a some money into it to get into the super car HP range vs. trading it in for a loss, buying a new, more expensive car, and then starting the mod process over again...I thought about a '17 Corvette Grand Sport for a day or two, too much money in comparison...
I plan on keeping this Z28 for a few years, enjoying it when I can, and garaging it and detailing it when I can't, and then seeing what's what in 2018-2019...who knows what crazy Z28, or Stingray will be out by then! (Maybe I'll be able to afford a Porsche GT3RS by the, lol)

Let me know if I'm missing something in this package to get me to 600 RWHP

11-04-2016, 08:21 PM	#29
Robbie1227 Drives: 2015 Camaro Z28/2016 Jeep Sahara Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 544	Ok Boys, I did it! I pulled the trigger on a BTR stage III cam, ported and polished heads by West Coast Heads, a Nick Williams 102 mm throttle body, MSD atomic intake, and a custom tune! Hoping to see RWHP in the low 600's Wish me luck! Should be done in a month, I'll let you know how it goes! Next track day is Homestead Raceway on 12/10 __________________ 2015 summit white Z28 #120 TRK DAY -Sun-Tek PPF-C protection film on 2/3 of the car, Moreno Camber plates, American Racing 2" ceramic coated LT headers and X-pipes with No Cats, Taylor red performance wires, NGK plugs, BTR Stage III Cam, MSD Atomic intake, Nick Williams 102mm throttle body, Stage 2 CNC Ported Heads by WCCH, MGW short throw shifter, oil catch can, and a dyno tune to get me to 587 RWHP and 516 RWTQ GONE: 2013 Summit White Camaro ZL1 M6 Roto-Fab CAI, Kooks headers and CAT delete, ATI damper and 10% pulley and balancer! Results: 576 RWHP - 540 RWTQ Last edited by Robbie1227; 11-06-2016 at 08:37 PM.

11-05-2016, 03:24 PM	#30
Qfastvette Drives: 2014 camaro Z/28 Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Bristow, VA Posts: 169	Can't wait to see your results! __________________ 2014 Camaro Z/28 #85 2015 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon Hard Rock 2009 Dodge Challenger SRT 8 1000 hp Arrington 426 hemi Pro Charger F1 13psi Fore precision works billet fuel rails Triple walbro fore fuel pump Moper hemi fuel Injectors stage 2 70lbs ATI super damper Southern Hotrod trans NAG1 D 3000 stall converter DSS 1400 HP axles DSS Drive Shaft American racing headers w/high flow cats Magnaflow cat-back competition exhaust Eibach Pro-Street-S kit adjustable coil overs Razors edge strut tower brace 4 point rear strut tower brace Matrix subframe brace ACE wheels 22x10.5 and 22x 9.

11-06-2016, 05:58 AM	#32
Stephen12ZL1 Drives: '21 ZLE A10 Join Date: May 2012 Location: Mechanicsville, VA Posts: 6,809	Probably LSA(ZL1) injectors not LS1. __________________ '21 ZLE A10 Wild Cherry PDR 2:00.78 VIR Full 10.68@131.69 1.68 60' '17 ZL1 A10 Mosaic Black PDR/Nav 2:03.08 VIR Full 11.003@129.2 1.75 (sold) '15 Z/28 #325 Black a/c & stereo. 2:10.1 VIR Full (sold) '12 ZL1 A6 Black 10.52@131 1.55 60' 2:13 VIR Full (sold)

11-06-2016, 11:26 AM	#33
AG454 I am not "Fast & Furious" Drives: 2010 Camaro LSX454 1LE Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Greeley Colorado Posts: 1,040 View My Garage	The LS7 in the Z28 has CNC'ed heads , doesn't it? If so, are you guys really gaining much by replacing them? __________________ The day I take a bend too fast Judgement that could be my last I'll be wiped right off the slate Don't wait up 'cause I'll be late, I'll be late

11-06-2016, 12:34 PM	#34
hollywdv Drives: 2015 Camaro Z/28 - Silver Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 135	Heads and cam +1 on the results robbie. i've read the stock manifolds flow pretty well but not sure how the cats are going to hold up with your mods and tracking. any plans on LTs? edit: saw your post on the LT gains thread. disregard question on LT. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Last edited by hollywdv; 11-06-2016 at 01:01 PM.

11-06-2016, 07:33 PM	#37
Robbie1227 Drives: 2015 Camaro Z28/2016 Jeep Sahara Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 544	I'm not replacing the heads, we're sending them to West Coast Cylinder Heads for what they call a Stage 2 treatment, see below: "We machine your supplied castings. Price includes hot tank and blast cleaning, installing bronze valve guides, our Stage 2 CNC port program, competition valve job, surface milling and new stainless steel exhaust valves. The titanium intake valves are cleaned, inspected and tumble polished to help reduce valve guide related wear." I'm dropping off my Z tomorrow, and won't see it for a few weeks. I requested they use my Actual Heads, and not a random set of LS7 heads they have at the shop. The speed shop does have a core program, where they send out a set of LS7 heads, and simply swap them for yours when they get back from WC heads...I didn't want to do this, so my car will be stored on a lift until they get back after the treatment. Also, I just realized I never discussed injectors with my speed shop? Doesnt this level of mod, with all this extra air, require large fuel injectors? Again, I'm no mechanic, I just live to drive fast! __________________ 2015 summit white Z28 #120 TRK DAY -Sun-Tek PPF-C protection film on 2/3 of the car, Moreno Camber plates, American Racing 2" ceramic coated LT headers and X-pipes with No Cats, Taylor red performance wires, NGK plugs, BTR Stage III Cam, MSD Atomic intake, Nick Williams 102mm throttle body, Stage 2 CNC Ported Heads by WCCH, MGW short throw shifter, oil catch can, and a dyno tune to get me to 587 RWHP and 516 RWTQ GONE: 2013 Summit White Camaro ZL1 M6 Roto-Fab CAI, Kooks headers and CAT delete, ATI damper and 10% pulley and balancer! Results: 576 RWHP - 540 RWTQ

11-07-2016, 01:35 AM	#38
LS7 Apex Z/28 Drives: Z/28 Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Where the sidewalk ends Posts: 76	The thought process seems to be... Even if the heads are not being replaced... The ratio of cost to gain for the head's machine work are high (not best). A "Stage II" cnc port on Z/28 heads is considered different work than on alternative heads needing it. How much material is left to port on already cncd heads might be worth asking and what are those gains... ~5whp? Serious in question if the try is anywhere close to a legitimate 575+ whp. Also what needs to happen more is tuning the stock car looking at gains from the tune alone vs gain in the added part. (Hard to do with time and cost and trust to tune without tactic or deceit). Headers for example... Replacing stock headers with aftermarket and tuning again. A 455 rwhp Z/28 may bump to 475-80 with a tune only. Aftermarket headers may account for 35% more whp and give the car 490 rwhp when added. Gains came in a greater amount from a tune with a cost is 1/4 of the headers. Without more air moving through, the headers are a weaker choice for HP gains. Replace induction and cam, the header ratio of cost to gain becomes better and the part becomes more necessary. Same concept works with the heads. Why not replace them with something that will get ~15whp if combined supporting mods. Otherwise the cost to gain ratio is still a bummer, especially with machine work that should not cost the same on heads with a port already. It is up to the owner but if most items are getting replaced, and if ratios even matter, no one wants to leave hp out. The breakdown is important when places want you to buy headers or pay for machine work. Squeezing all those horses and the cost gets greater anyway. Ratios aside, the upcoming power should be fun.

11-07-2016, 05:24 AM	#39
Robbie1227 Drives: 2015 Camaro Z28/2016 Jeep Sahara Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 544	The machining of my heads is shown as $1,700 on my proposal, and the option for a set of new, built heads was $3,200, which was 2x that. I was on the Mast Motorsports site, and a set a LS7 heads seem to run about that much. Do you think it's worth spending double on the new Racing heads, instead of the port and polish? My speedshop discussed it at a minimum, and didn't think it was with the extra dough. We didn't discuss brand though, just buying Heads vs. machining and rebuilding mine. Opinions please! __________________ 2015 summit white Z28 #120 TRK DAY -Sun-Tek PPF-C protection film on 2/3 of the car, Moreno Camber plates, American Racing 2" ceramic coated LT headers and X-pipes with No Cats, Taylor red performance wires, NGK plugs, BTR Stage III Cam, MSD Atomic intake, Nick Williams 102mm throttle body, Stage 2 CNC Ported Heads by WCCH, MGW short throw shifter, oil catch can, and a dyno tune to get me to 587 RWHP and 516 RWTQ GONE: 2013 Summit White Camaro ZL1 M6 Roto-Fab CAI, Kooks headers and CAT delete, ATI damper and 10% pulley and balancer! Results: 576 RWHP - 540 RWTQ

11-07-2016, 11:43 AM	#40
LS7 Apex Z/28 Drives: Z/28 Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Where the sidewalk ends Posts: 76	Worth is subjective to you and a predicament when thinking if youll go any further than this setup. The machine work is a choice in the right direction for certain, only it'd be nice to get details of what was gained from it to judge whether you need to go with another head application to take full advantage of the cam. Machine work can be worth it. Worth example, I would not do headers alone on the Z/28, but I cannot say headers alone are not worth it, unless you say headers with no tune and I say waste of time. In your first setup assume you base lined close to 460 whp stock. You gained 32 whp but what would the car gain from a tune alone? No less than 50% of that was from tune in my opinion. (We'll leave out catted vs not and fuel variables). You made great gains though, and the sound and weight saving are considerable pluses. How can anyone say its not worth it to you? I'm using the header reference so much because it is a common and easy modification and has a thread here. Another example for fun... Not in absolute. Say no other mods on car... What if a shop said they guarantee you could have your stock heads machined and gain 15whp, or you buy "race" heads and pick up only 5whp. Now, what if you install headers with your race heads and those race heads then give you 20whp plus another 15whp from headers. Is 35whp vs 30whp(machined heads and headers) worth it now? Are you certain the headers can gain 15whp to get 30whp gain with only machined stock heads? Real scenarios will involve other mods, fuel, comp. ratio, etc. and the tuning to go with it. Nothing is absolute and the variables are rough to predict. Assuming the tuner is all knowing and that variable is null, the thought is how well do the parts work(optimize) together. Your mod path is exciting, and that's why I am discussing it all. For enjoyment and thrill, seeing what you like and find worth it.

11-07-2016, 08:08 PM	#42
Robbie1227 Drives: 2015 Camaro Z28/2016 Jeep Sahara Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 544	Definitely DON'T have money to burn! It was either more HP or a new, more powerful car! This is my only hobby, the rest of my existence is my kids and my business. Figuring this Z is still new and under 3,000 miles, has almost a full SunTek clear wrap, I already did a bunch of mods (see signature) is in mint condition, and is super unique... It made more sense to drop a some money into it to get into the super car HP range vs. trading it in for a loss, buying a new, more expensive car, and then starting the mod process over again...I thought about a '17 Corvette Grand Sport for a day or two, too much money in comparison... I plan on keeping this Z28 for a few years, enjoying it when I can, and garaging it and detailing it when I can't, and then seeing what's what in 2018-2019...who knows what crazy Z28, or Stingray will be out by then! (Maybe I'll be able to afford a Porsche GT3RS by the, lol) Let me know if I'm missing something in this package to get me to 600 RWHP __________________ 2015 summit white Z28 #120 TRK DAY -Sun-Tek PPF-C protection film on 2/3 of the car, Moreno Camber plates, American Racing 2" ceramic coated LT headers and X-pipes with No Cats, Taylor red performance wires, NGK plugs, BTR Stage III Cam, MSD Atomic intake, Nick Williams 102mm throttle body, Stage 2 CNC Ported Heads by WCCH, MGW short throw shifter, oil catch can, and a dyno tune to get me to 587 RWHP and 516 RWTQ GONE: 2013 Summit White Camaro ZL1 M6 Roto-Fab CAI, Kooks headers and CAT delete, ATI damper and 10% pulley and balancer! Results: 576 RWHP - 540 RWTQ