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Old 04-22-2021, 02:15 PM   #1
1LE_L1FE
 
Drives: 2017 Camaro SS 1LE
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A few basic questions on a "no compromise" bolt on build for my daily

I've had the car for around a year now, powertrain warranty will be expiring soon-ish and I'm ready to have a *bit* more fun, but it's my only car and my daily, so I don't want to make it a worse car for running errands, road trips, etc. I go for a lot of spirited back road drives, and hope to get on a track soon, but it's primarily my daily. I'd also like to be able to revert it to stock relatively easily.

I've spent a couple weeks reading around and just want to make sure I have everything straight.

Seems like the best bang for my buck would be:

- Pray ported stock IM/TB
- Rotofab dry
- E85 kit
- Maybe an ATI underdrive harmonic balancer if I'm feeling extra, least sure on this/the benefits

Everything I've seen here seems to indicate that there aren't worthwhile gains to be made with the exhaust on a bolt on build unless you're willing to remove the cats, and I'm not interested in that right now. Seems like my stock NPP exhaust is pretty damn good as it is.

MSD intake seems like overkill/poor value for this mild of a build. LT2, and potentially larger throttle bodies I'm unsure about - would I see much gain going to a ported LT2 and 95mm TBs, or would that be wasted on this pedestrian of a setup?

Tuning I have less of an understanding on. So far as I can tell, I'd be able to run this (minus E85 of course) on the stock configuration, it would just be a bit suboptimal/leave some gains on the table. So I could self-install the parts, and drive it before getting it tuned. When I do tune it, my best options are either finding a local tuner, or HP Tuners MPVI2 + 4 credits + Pray remote tune + book some local dyno time? Am I missing anything? I believe Pray has said no wideband necessary with a Rotofab.

+50 rwhp, and extra power all over the curve + a little better noise from the engine seems realistic for this, no? Any input, corrections, advice, whatever else would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 04-22-2021, 02:38 PM   #2
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LT2 is your best bang for your buck. MSD gives more power, but it's in the upper power band. Many people feel like the extra 600 - 700 dollars for the MSD can go somewhere else. Me personally, given I also daily my camaro, would get MSD for the looks and power, I would add Kooks Headers, coated by Jet Hot, with green cats, but all that stuff will pass Illinois emissions inspection.
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Old 04-22-2021, 03:03 PM   #3
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Thanks man. I actually just came back here from a big LT2 thread, I think a lot of the stuff I was reading on ported stock vs MSD was simply from before the LT2 existed. It definitely looks to be worthwhile. Time to do more research on the TBs.

I'm tempted to chase every last bit of power, but I know if I go down that road it'll suddenly be H/C and just a whole different monster. I think I'll be content with just the low hanging fruit, and keeping it easy to revert to stock and sell in CA eventually. What kind of gains are there to be had with those headers on an e85 build with the intake side appropriately handled?
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Old 04-22-2021, 03:34 PM   #4
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I would go positive displacement supercharger. Edelbrock or Magnuson.
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Old 04-22-2021, 03:43 PM   #5
1LE_L1FE
 
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Definitely just interested in NA. One of the main reasons I bought the car. I'm not into drag racing personally.
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Old 04-22-2021, 07:40 PM   #6
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1LE-you may want to reconsider selling it. It is highly likely after 2022, they won't build the camaro anymore. Or it would be a version of electric, so the big gas V8 of the SS may become very valuable.. Just a thought.
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Old 04-22-2021, 08:44 PM   #7
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bolt ons are an easy way to pick up power and not trade anything. if budget is a concern, id opt for the LT2 im, LT5 tb and ethanol. youll hit diminishing returns real quick with exhaust and cai. i didn't find the rotofab to be worth anything over my cut stock air box. the combined power gain from headers & rotofab would be <20 hp and the total money invested would easily be $1500+. your call.

with all of that being said i have

speed engineering 2" headers
custom 3" exhaust
mamo ported msd
untouched LT5 tb
rotofab dry
ati damper
ethanol

the car runs hard. if i did it again i think i could get real close and save myself about $2k in the process.
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Old 04-22-2021, 09:29 PM   #8
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Carvana of all places offered me $2k more than I paid 9 months and 13k miles ago, the market certainly isn't hurting. I almost bought an E92 M3 instead as a long term value proposition. No plans to sell in the near future, but it never hurts to keep resale in mind. I'm not a long time Camaro fan, just someone who wanted the best performing car for the money.

s346k - I hear you. Pray seems like the guru on this stuff and he preaches the rotofab, and they're ~$350ish on the classifieds. Seems worthwhile to me. Cool whooshing noises at the very least.

Do you think the LT5 TB is worth it with the LT2 IM? After doing some more research I'm all in on the LT2, but it's $374 for the modded LT2 + harness from GPI, but another $425 for porting with 95mm TB matching, plus another $400 for the Katech ported LT5 TB. Seems like people only see 3-4 HP from porting the LT2, is the 95mm TB worth an $825 upcharge? Hard to imagine it is on such a mild build. Maybe the money looks different buying second hand, but still.

What did you do for tuning? I could definitely see myself just going $350 Rotofab, $375 LT2, $200 flex fuel kit and calling it a day, but that feels way out of whack if I'm spending $500 on HP Tuners + credits, $600 for a remote tune, plus dyno cost. I'm definitely onboard with spending half the money for 80% of the benefit, but I definitely don't want to pay for a tune twice if I eventually go further.
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Old 04-23-2021, 06:27 AM   #9
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i like the LT2 intake and ethanol combo. i had both on my car last september. i have no dyno numbers with the LT2 but it easily picked up 1+ mph over a ported stock LT1 & stock tb.

i tested the rotofab against a modified stock air box 10 different ways from sunday and saw 0 gains. id guess i'm the only person here who will argue that point.

i had <$450 in an LT2 manifold and LT5 tb. i got my tb from sdparts, $224 shipped. i modified the intake manifold myself for <$10. but i did buy a new vacuum line, i think it was $22 or something. i'm not sold on porting the stock intakes. the LT2 in particular is so good from the factory i dont see how it could possibly be worth hundreds of dollars. the intake ports on mine looked perfect. i'm also a hard sell on bigger tbs. with that being said, my kpa went from 93 to 98 going from stock to 95 mm, but it didn't amount to much on the dyno. my car only picked up 14 whp going from stock ported LT1 im, stock untouched tb & modified stock box to unported msd, 95 mm, rotofab dry.

the tune thing is touchy. hptuners will scan and log basically any car with an obd2 port. ive been using hpt off and on since 2005. i use it for a lot more than just camaro things. im familiar with gm gen 3 & 4 tuning, not gen 5. i have friends big into it but since i have such a good tuner close, i opted to have him do it. if i were in your shoes i would buy hpt and if possible get pray to remote tune it. cheapest entry in the long run and he's good at what he does.

LT2, rotofab & ethanol should pick up 40/40 and will not affect the car one bit with regard to drivability, mileage or reliability. you don't need to hit a dyno unless you want numbers and a graph to look at. id bump the rev limiter up and shift the car around 6700 or so with the LT2. id look for a 3+ mph gain if you're into dragy things.
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Old 04-23-2021, 09:32 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1LE_L1FE View Post
I've had the car for around a year now, powertrain warranty will be expiring soon-ish and I'm ready to have a *bit* more fun, but it's my only car and my daily, so I don't want to make it a worse car for running errands, road trips, etc. I go for a lot of spirited back road drives, and hope to get on a track soon, but it's primarily my daily. I'd also like to be able to revert it to stock relatively easily.

I've spent a couple weeks reading around and just want to make sure I have everything straight.

Seems like the best bang for my buck would be:

- Pray ported stock IM/TB
- Rotofab dry
- E85 kit
- Maybe an ATI underdrive harmonic balancer if I'm feeling extra, least sure on this/the benefits

Everything I've seen here seems to indicate that there aren't worthwhile gains to be made with the exhaust on a bolt on build unless you're willing to remove the cats, and I'm not interested in that right now. Seems like my stock NPP exhaust is pretty damn good as it is.

MSD intake seems like overkill/poor value for this mild of a build. LT2, and potentially larger throttle bodies I'm unsure about - would I see much gain going to a ported LT2 and 95mm TBs, or would that be wasted on this pedestrian of a setup?

Tuning I have less of an understanding on. So far as I can tell, I'd be able to run this (minus E85 of course) on the stock configuration, it would just be a bit suboptimal/leave some gains on the table. So I could self-install the parts, and drive it before getting it tuned. When I do tune it, my best options are either finding a local tuner, or HP Tuners MPVI2 + 4 credits + Pray remote tune + book some local dyno time? Am I missing anything? I believe Pray has said no wideband necessary with a Rotofab.

+50 rwhp, and extra power all over the curve + a little better noise from the engine seems realistic for this, no? Any input, corrections, advice, whatever else would be greatly appreciated.
I am nearly in the same shoes as you. I've had my 1LE for a few years and October this year the powertrain warranty expires. As you can guess from my username, my Camaro is my daily same as you.

I just recently started to get into modding this thing. First stop for me was a Rotofab Dry. I already installed this myself. My next order was a DSX Tuning E85 kit (have it sitting next to me now) and I am currently on week 6 waiting for my ARH catted full exhaust. Once this comes in I will be installing both the E85 and exhaust at the same time. I will also be getting a tune and dyno which will all be done by my local speed shop.

I asked them to do a baseline dyno (which would just be with the rotofab that is already on car) and I am pretty sure they will dyno on 93 and then again on E85. If they do, I will have clear results to view how much HP the full exhaust added and then how much E85 added on top of that. I can share those once I have them which I hope will be around May 10th. Though if this exhaust doesn't come in soon I will have to push that out. I had no idea it took this long to get exhaust.

Anyway, while I originally told myself I would stop after this, like you I am finding people are posting a lot of gains from different intake manifolds which is hard to ignore. However, I think I will hold this off for a while as my next "wave" of mods and maybe consider something like a TB/IM combo and perhaps a cam. We'll see how the funds look next year for that though.

Lastly, I don't think it's fair to say exhaust adds no power. I've looked through dozens of threads, and I find people post anywhere from 10-25whp gains. I tend to believe the lower end, but that is still more power. I think the problem is the cost / HP gained. My exhaust cost several thousand, and while you can go cheaper, even the cheaper stuff cannot match something like the LT2 intake cost / HP gained. Hard to beat $300 intake that seems to add 10-20whp. Any mod will look bad compared to that, so I think it's best not to compare anything else to that. Guess a new intake will be next on my mod list after this round!
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Old 04-23-2021, 03:43 PM   #11
Murder6.2
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That’s the set up I’m currently running on my car.
Rotofab
Pray ported TB & IM
CA cat deletes
E85 and tuned by Brett.
Not sure how much power I gained exactly but over stock I gained 6mph at the 1/8 and shaved off .6 off 1/8
It’s definitely a nice daily driver package. I have heard the LT2 manifold is better than ported stock so I would go for that
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Old 04-23-2021, 05:11 PM   #12
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Nothing against Pray's tunes but I hate to see people pay $600 plus when you can get an equal (or better) tune for half that from the same guy Brett goes to when he needs help.
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Old 04-26-2021, 12:53 AM   #13
1LE_L1FE
 
Drives: 2017 Camaro SS 1LE
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> i tested the rotofab against a modified stock air box 10 different ways from sunday and saw 0 gains. id guess i'm the only person here who will argue that point.

Nah, I've seen some people here who know their stuff be hardline supporters, but I also read this thread after making my posts:

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=472259

Seems like BEST case scenario is 6 HP, and no gain shy of 4,400 RPM. Not great for $470 or whatever new.

> the tune thing is touchy. hptuners will scan and log basically any car with an obd2 port. ive been using hpt off and on since 2005. i use it for a lot more than just camaro things. im familiar with gm gen 3 & 4 tuning, not gen 5. i have friends big into it but since i have such a good tuner close, i opted to have him do it. if i were in your shoes i would buy hpt and if possible get pray to remote tune it. cheapest entry in the long run and he's good at what he does.

I'm a hobby computer/programming nerd. I'm probably not doing anything for a few months, maybe I'll read up on this and try my hand. And that's good to know about the dyno, I had just assumed dyno time was required for the tuning process.

> I asked them to do a baseline dyno (which would just be with the rotofab that is already on car) and I am pretty sure they will dyno on 93 and then again on E85. If they do, I will have clear results to view how much HP the full exhaust added and then how much E85 added on top of that. I can share those once I have them which I hope will be around May 10th. Though if this exhaust doesn't come in soon I will have to push that out. I had no idea it took this long to get exhaust.

That would be great! Looking forward to it. Sucks you've had to wait so long on parts.

> Lastly, I don't think it's fair to say exhaust adds no power. I've looked through dozens of threads, and I find people post anywhere from 10-25whp gains.

Oh if you're willing to go catless, definitely. I'd just prefer to keep the cats. I meant that I hadn't seen much from catback changes alone - if you're willing to chop them out that's obviously a meaningful restriction gone.

> Nothing against Pray's tunes but I hate to see people pay $600 plus when you can get an equal (or better) tune for half that from the same guy Brett goes to when he needs help.

And who would that be? I'm very new to this world, I'd gotten the impression Pray was the go-to guy.
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Old 04-26-2021, 07:20 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Oc View Post
Nothing against Pray's tunes but I hate to see people pay $600 plus when you can get an equal (or better) tune for half that from the same guy Brett goes to when he needs help.
Who is Brett's go to guy?
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