Turbos; journal bearings vs ball bearings?

[Taco Time]

I'm looking at twin turbo kits and keep seeing an option to upgrade to ball bearing turbos. It's typically a $1,000 upgrade. What's the benefit of doing this? Is it really needed? My car is a non-daily driver and for the most part would just be a dyno queen.

[ecreps]

Faster Spool is about it I think.

[Unreal]

Depends on the turbos. Ball bearings have better transisent, but very little difference in actual spool from 0 to full boost. They can take higher loads.

If $1000 is chump change it is a no brainer, but there is nothing wrong with journal bearing turbos, and the performance difference is almost zero.

[JantzenOKC]

Journal bearings have been working just fine for me, no complaints.

[Ajdin@A2BMotorsport]

For $1000 why not, like unreal said you can make the same power on both and they both spool about the same, some people have said %50 better spool times on a ball bearing, their lying its normally up to 10% and thats also different depending on what turbo's your comparing and what boost levels their hitting.

The big advantages are reduced oil flow, and the reduced amount of oil required for lubrication, BB turbos are more likely to survive low lube conditions over a journal and the other is durability, due to not needing a thrust bearing in the BB turbo you eliminate a week spot in the bearing assembly.

Thanks

[Taco Time]

Thanks for the help guys. But $1,000 is def not chump change in my book! LOL.

[Reelgrinder]

Are there any TT by AGP in Houston? I have heard there is a helion and 14K powerfab setup.. But i haven't heard or seen yet..

Sounds like you know jrod well, he can get a hold of Matt and Rodney easy.. If FSP said there good that's good enough for me..

[Reelgrinder]

Originally Posted by Unreal

Depends on the turbos. Ball bearings have better transisent, but very little difference in actual spool from 0 to full boost. They can take higher loads.

If $1000 is chump change it is a no brainer, but there is nothing wrong with journal bearing turbos, and the performance difference is almost zero.

Don't say depends on the turbos! That's with anything..

How about what the AGP comes with over there 1000 upgrade I think that's what TACO meant!

When I call and talk to Kevin he says it so worth it and it spools up so much faster.. but your passing it off like it aint no thing journal are good.

Are you saying that the best journal bearing spools as quick as the worst ball bearing so in that case journals are ok or are you saying that there is no difference in bearing over the journal in the agp package.. I can't tell what you mean your statement contradicts itself..
there is no difference go ahead and spend the extra 1000

I'm sure they both make same power one just gets there a lot quicker and maybe with less noticeable lag..

[Unreal]

Ball bearing is like saying does a high lift cam help.

BW ball bearings are different than garret, different than precision, different from turbonetics. They all have different designs.

Transient response is way better, lag is not. If you are at 4k and punch a BB turbo it will hit "quicker" than a normal, that is the response. If you are at idle and floor it the BB won't hit boost max boost way faster than a journal, that is more dependent on turbo size, a/r, etc. Maybe a few hundred RPM sooner.

Also it depends on turbo size, if you are running a 48mm tiny ass turbo that hits almost instant, the difference with ball bearings is going to be very slim. If it is a pair of 66/72s or something that doesn't hit till 3500, then it would be far more noticeable.

[Unreal]

Taco, I much much much rather see you put that $1000 towards a fuel system, or meth, or tires, or a clutch than BB if you don't have the other stuff IMO. Now if that is all taken care of and you have an extra $1k laying around, do it. Otherwise I would put money that a journal bearing with meth, or journal bearing with a real fuel system will be faster/safer/funner than a ball bearing without that. Then again you can always add fuel/meth later, and may want to spend the extra up front, but if that isn't the case, put it towards fueling/octane.

[Taco Time]

Originally Posted by Reelgrinder

Are there any TT by AGP in Houston? I have heard there is a helion and 14K powerfab setup.. But i haven't heard or seen yet..

Sounds like you know jrod well, he can get a hold of Matt and Rodney easy.. If FSP said there good that's good enough for me..

Power Fab is where my buddy goes. I'm going to have to talk to them to see if they've got a built Hellion powered car. I met Bob (AquaBlueSS on here), he's a member of H-town Camaro Club with a beautiful blue/ green SS with the AGP twins. He basically has a stock SS with the base AGP kit and meth. That car does not mess around! I'm torn between AGP and Hellion. It's probably going to come down to what vendor is going to do the best deal. They both have pros and cons compared to each other.

J-Rod built my car; I know him and Jr well. My motor actually came from Matt at FSP. I've asked them all 20 questions about their input on supercharger vs turbocharger, and then AGP vs Hellion. And then about 1000 other dumb questions.

Originally Posted by Unreal

Taco, I much much much rather see you put that $1000 towards a fuel system, or meth, or tires, or a clutch than BB if you don't have the other stuff IMO. Now if that is all taken care of and you have an extra $1k laying around, do it. Otherwise I would put money that a journal bearing with meth, or journal bearing with a real fuel system will be faster/safer/funner than a ball bearing without that. Then again you can always add fuel/meth later, and may want to spend the extra up front, but if that isn't the case, put it towards fueling/octane.

I've got my excel sheet going with everything I need. I'm debating meth vs e85 right now. So all of that is included. Looking at hellion some dealers charge a diff price to upgrade turbos. Hellion's website says it's $1k, but I found a dealer that said $700.

I left the thread title like I did because I didn't want to get side tracked by debating one brand BB turbo vs another's JB turbo. I was only looking for a general answer on the pros of upgrading to BB turbos. Now that you guys have given me some feedback, I also emailed Kevin at AGP to get more info, I'm starting to look at different brands so I can dig a little deeper. I have learned a lot in putting this all together, but I've also realized that there's so much more I don't know yet.

[Taco Time]

Originally Posted by Unreal

Taco, I much much much rather see you put that $1000 towards a fuel system, or meth, or tires, or a clutch than BB if you don't have the other stuff IMO. Now if that is all taken care of and you have an extra $1k laying around, do it. Otherwise I would put money that a journal bearing with meth, or journal bearing with a real fuel system will be faster/safer/funner than a ball bearing without that. Then again you can always add fuel/meth later, and may want to spend the extra up front, but if that isn't the case, put it towards fueling/octane.

I've got my ZL1 drive line and new clutch waiting for install. I'm looking at losing my 20" wheels and going to 17" or 18" with drag radials. And I'm looking at fuel. An $8k turbo kit somehow is turning into a $16k turbo kit. But once it's done I won't ever doubt it's capabilities.

[Unreal]

Matt@FSP or Kevin@AGP are you two best bets for a killer deal on a kit.

[Unreal]

Something to note, some BB turbos require water cooling, which is extra lines and potential leaks. Some brands don't. Just something to check into and be aware of. If you are doing BB turbos, I would go straight to the garrets. Their BB stuff is amazing.