will there be a Z28 Camaro

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by pistolgripcopo1

Who cares how meany turboz, If the Z comez out, You can put as meny tuborzz az you want. Then you can call it twin or bi. who cares.

Yeah, watch out for the meany turbos, I heard they are pretty bad....LOL....

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by 2012ZL1

I don't think there will be one. In order for a Z-28 to fly, it would need to be a lot lighter, which is impossible with this platform. Once the next gen is out i would expect a Z28.

Why, exactly, does it need to be substantially lighter?

And what makes you think that the gen 6 will be substantially lighter than the 5th gen?

Originally Posted by cam fan

Leno made the comment in his review of his own LLT with the bi-turbo that it should go into production maybe as a z28.

Gen 4 had the z28 slotted in the middle (v6 - z - ss) so why not?

Leno seems to forget that adding a pair of turbochargers, plus an intercooler, plus plumbing, would make such a car heavier than an SS. Especially when the suspension & other drivetrain components are added to cope with the added power, and to make sure it can handle well.

The 4th gen SS was a bit of an oddball. They were all Z28s modified by SLP. GM didn't make SS's to be a 'step up' from the Z28.

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Why, exactly, does it need to be substantially lighter?

And what makes you think that the gen 6 will be substantially lighter than the 5th gen?



Leno seems to forget that adding a pair of turbochargers, plus an intercooler, plus plumbing, would make such a car heavier than an SS. Especially when the suspension & other drivetrain components are added to cope with the added power, and to make sure it can handle well.

The 4th gen SS was a bit of an oddball. They were all Z28s modified by SLP. GM didn't make SS's to be a 'step up' from the Z28.

I am one of those firmly in the camp that the 6th gen. Camaro will be substantially lighter then the 5th gen. We know the 6th gen will be on the Alpha chassis, the Cadillac ATS is also on Alpha and it's base model is UNDER 3,400 lb., ATS V6 version is at around 3,450 lb., if you add a V8 and some performance parts to that you will be around 3,550 lb. or about 300 lb less than the 5th gen. I posted more exact numbers in one of the threads a couple of months ago right after the ATS announcements were made, the consensus of opinion from several Camaro sites/threads was that the 6th gen Camaro is very likely to be 300 or more lb lighter than the 5th gen, and in my mind that is a substantial difference. I do agree 100% with your analysis of the Leno options, far too much weight compared to an NA LS3 or LS7.
Clyde

[knitetrain05]

no

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by wildpaws

I am one of those firmly in the camp that the 6th gen. Camaro will be substantially lighter then the 5th gen. We know the 6th gen will be on the Alpha chassis, the Cadillac ATS is also on Alpha and it's base model is UNDER 3,400 lb., ATS V6 version is at around 3,450 lb., if you add a V8 and some performance parts to that you will be around 3,550 lb. or about 300 lb less than the 5th gen. I posted more exact numbers in one of the threads a couple of months ago right after the ATS announcements were made, the consensus of opinion from several Camaro sites/threads was that the 6th gen Camaro is very likely to be 300 or more lb lighter than the 5th gen, and in my mind that is a substantial difference. I do agree 100% with your analysis of the Leno options, far too much weight compared to an NA LS3 or LS7.
Clyde

And the consensus of opinion on the 5th gen was that it would weigh 3600 to 3700 lbs. And that there'd be a supercharged Z28. And I'm sure there are a few others. Just because a lot of people agree on something, doesn't mean that they'll be right -especially when they have little more to go on than each others guesses.


There is too much that we don't know about the 6th gen to predict how much it will weigh:

• How big will the car be? Alpha will cover the compact/midsize ATS as well as a full size next gen CTS.
• What sort of power levels is it supposed to support?
• How many (if any) aluminum/composite components will be swapped out when building Chevy's instead of Cadillacs?

But even then, lets say you are right and a 6th gen Camaro with a V8 comes in at about 3550 lbs. That still isn't light. Its just 'not as heavy'. Get the car down to the low 3000 lb range (roughly where Corvettes are) ... then you can start calling it light. But for it to be truly considered light, it would need to be under 3000 lbs -something which isn't going to happen.



Don't get me wrong, a lighter car, with all other things being equal, will perform better. But it will still behave like a heavy car, because it will still be a heavy car. Just not as heavy. And so if one way or the other its going to be a heavy car, may as well make one now. Besides, having a 5th gen Z28 in no way prevents a 6th gen z28

[wildpaws]

I don't think we'll see truly light by your definition anytime in the near future (under 3k lb), I don't think we'll even see first gen weights in the near future. I forsee weights like that happening in 15-20 years as CAFE keeps squeezing the fleet averages. We'll just have to wait and see where weights end up going in the near future. I will say that I'll take a "lighter" heavy car any day over the heavier heavy car. I'm not arguing for no 5th. gen Z/28, perhaps you misunderstand me, I would love to see a Z/28 in the 5th gen as I can't think of a more appropriate body style for one.
Clyde

[CaptianSam]

ATS weight < 3400 lbs

Camaro weight < ATS weight



Platform sharing minus doors, equipment, luxuries,etc. save 100 -200 lbs ...illustrated even using Benz, charger, challenger example .... 4600, 4400, 4200 respectively.

I think we are safe to assume very close to 3350 lbs. which IMO is unbelievable considering putting in a 400 plus hp v8

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by wildpaws

I don't think we'll see truly light by your definition anytime in the near future (under 3k lb), I don't think we'll even see first gen weights in the near future. I forsee weights like that happening in 15-20 years as CAFE keeps squeezing the fleet averages. We'll just have to wait and see where weights end up going in the near future. I will say that I'll take a "lighter" heavy car any day over the heavier heavy car. I'm not arguing for no 5th. gen Z/28, perhaps you misunderstand me, I would love to see a Z/28 in the 5th gen as I can't think of a more appropriate body style for one.
Clyde

No, I'm just saying that the 'its too heavy' argument against they 5th gen doesn't really hold water because 3600 is still too heavy by any objective measure. It won't make it a light weight, tossable, canyon carving, autocross terror. If I'm not mistaken, handling is the main reason why people want GM to wait for the lighter 6th gen to build the Z28. But anyone who follows the Camaro should know that it is very capable of holding its own with regard to handling. Just look at that recent Motor Trend comparo where the ZL1 beat the Boss LS (which had near race tires) in the corners. And thats a ~400 lb lighter Mustang designed explicitly to handle well on road courses.

Knock 100-150 lbs off the ZL1, mainly off the nose, and give it a suspension setup specially tuned for on-track performance (instead of compromising between road & track) and the gap only gets bigger. Why isn't that enough for a Z28? And furthermore, how does 3600 lbs magically make it 'light enough' to be a Z28?

Its like saying "The SS weak and underpowered because it only has 426 hp, but if it had 455? Then it would be a monster'. No it wouldn't, it would help but its not going to be a radical improvement. Certainly isn't enough to say that the SS should never have been built unless it had that extra power. And yet somehow, people are saying the same type of thing regarding the Z28, that until the Camaro can weigh less there should never be a Z28.

I understand that you haven't made all the claims regarding Z28 & 6th gen that I've talked about here, I'm just using your post to segue into why I don't see why there can't be a 5th gen Z28

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by CaptianSam

ATS weight < 3400 lbs

Camaro weight < ATS weight



Platform sharing minus doors, equipment, luxuries,etc. save 100 -200 lbs ...illustrated even using Benz, charger, challenger example .... 4600, 4400, 4200 respectively.

I think we are safe to assume very close to 3350 lbs. which IMO is unbelievable considering putting in a 400 plus hp v8

Removing 2 doors doesn't reduce the weight of a car very much. You have to re-inforce the structure to compensate for the larger single opening. Look at the CTS sedan vs coupe. There, the coupe which is a few inches shorter & lower than its sedan counterpart (and therefore slightly less material overall) actually weighs about 50 lbs more.

Luxury content? There won't be a whole lot on the ATS that doesn't have a similar system in the Camaro. Today, its more in the materials & execution that mark the difference between a luxury car and a mainstream car. And one thing you are forgetting is that a 400+ hp V8 weighs about 150 lbs more than a naturally aspirated 4 banger. Then the rest of the drivetrain can easily add at least 50 lbs, maybe another 100. Afterall, an axle designed to cope with 170 ft-lbs is going to be hopelessly outmatched when you send 2 1/2 times that torque through it when the tree goes green at the strip.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Removing 2 doors doesn't reduce the weight of a car very much. You have to re-inforce the structure to compensate for the larger single opening. Look at the CTS sedan vs coupe. There, the coupe which is a few inches shorter & lower than its sedan counterpart (and therefore slightly less material overall) actually weighs about 50 lbs more.

Luxury content? There won't be a whole lot on the ATS that doesn't have a similar system in the Camaro. Today, its more in the materials & execution that mark the difference between a luxury car and a mainstream car. And one thing you are forgetting is that a 400+ hp V8 weighs about 150 lbs more than a naturally aspirated 4 banger. Then the rest of the drivetrain can easily add at least 50 lbs, maybe another 100. Afterall, an axle designed to cope with 170 ft-lbs is going to be hopelessly outmatched when you send 2 1/2 times that torque through it when the tree goes green at the strip.

Well said!

In one of these threads regarding the L/28 it was mentioned that just replacing the front seats can save a lot of lbs.

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

No, I'm just saying that the 'its too heavy' argument against they 5th gen doesn't really hold water because 3600 is still too heavy by any objective measure. It won't make it a light weight, tossable, canyon carving, autocross terror. If I'm not mistaken, handling is the main reason why people want GM to wait for the lighter 6th gen to build the Z28. But anyone who follows the Camaro should know that it is very capable of holding its own with regard to handling. Just look at that recent Motor Trend comparo where the ZL1 beat the Boss LS (which had near race tires) in the corners. And thats a ~400 lb lighter Mustang designed explicitly to handle well on road courses.

Knock 100-150 lbs off the ZL1, mainly off the nose, and give it a suspension setup specially tuned for on-track performance (instead of compromising between road & track) and the gap only gets bigger. Why isn't that enough for a Z28? And furthermore, how does 3600 lbs magically make it 'light enough' to be a Z28?

Its like saying "The SS weak and underpowered because it only has 426 hp, but if it had 455? Then it would be a monster'. No it wouldn't, it would help but its not going to be a radical improvement. Certainly isn't enough to say that the SS should never have been built unless it had that extra power. And yet somehow, people are saying the same type of thing regarding the Z28, that until the Camaro can weigh less there should never be a Z28.

I understand that you haven't made all the claims regarding Z28 & 6th gen that I've talked about here, I'm just using your post to segue into why I don't see why there can't be a 5th gen Z28

OK, at this point I'm going to have to say you are taking EVERYTHING I've said out of context and twisting it to mean something I never said or implied (in spite of your last paragraph). I've been concerned with weight even back when I bought my Z/28 in '69, I went so far as to decline having the dealer undercoat applied in the interest of keeping the weight down. Everyday performance nuts like myself are concerned about every extra pound of weight on their car, we don't simply worry about "will it be truly light" (under 3k per your definition), we worry about keeping off every single extra pound we can. Would a 3,550 lb Z/28 be better than a 3,850 lb Z/28 if everything else was equal? I can't see how it would not be. Am I ready for Chevy to build a 5th gen Z/28 even if it weighs 3,850 lb? You bet I am. And at the same time, I'm still very concious of weight and would do whatever is reasonable and cost effective to keep extra weight off of a Z/28, be it 5th gen or 6th gen.
Clyde

[2cnd chance]

I play it over and over in my mind, what can I do to reduce the weight once I get my Z28 5Gen...seats, exhaust, intake, washer fluid bottle, mmmmmmm...


3,900 lbs. (with driver)
525 HP
= 11.9 1/4 mile, 3.7 0-60

[wildpaws]

Just to add some info on Alpha and the ATS (because I have not seen it mentioned in many places), the Alpha/ATS has been through suspension tuning/tweaking at Nurburgring, there are some shots of an ATS prototype at the Ring. The sport suspension for the ATS has MRC magnaride suspension, all of this excellent work already done on the ATS tells me that all 6th gen Camaros will benefit because so much of the preliminary work is out of the way. It leaves us still waiting for a 5th gen Z/28 which I hope to see, as well it leaves us waiting to see what body design and models will evolve for the 6th gen Camaro.
Clyde

[2cnd chance]

I really love the 5Gen design, my concern is I may not like the 6Gen as much. It
has the bones to be a better designed car than the 5Gen, but as GM knows already its difficult designing a successor to such a successful design. History has shown a next Gen anything is not always a step up. I believe the smart design move is to use the 5Gen as a template a redesign from there cautiously.