[Nsxmatt]

I hate the 19's refresh, but in it's defense chevy is releasing a performance car with summer tires in the beginning of the cold season. Of course they aren't going to fly off the lot right now.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Lithias

I have been tracking movement of 2019s since production launch back in August. Most of the early production 2019s didn't even ship till almost end of September. They have barely begun to arrive on lots. There have been some weird delays in shipping the 2019s versus 2018s.

I regularly have to travel from across Michigan and pass Lansing on my way. I can tell you, can conclude the same: I did not see the 2019's on trucks until late September. Even then, I saw maybe one (1) truck in my travels. Through October, I have seen several trucks...

I was in Europe a few weeks back and got into a conversation about Mustang and Camaro with a few colleagues; the word was that they like the Camaro, but it is a hard purchase to justify due to the car not being as liveable as the Mustang. Visibility is not the thing that came up as the major gripe - it was the trunk opening. The visibility out the rear, rear seats and lack of auxiliary cargo room for misc. items weren't a major concern.

In the US, I've spoken to several random people (car enthusiasts and regular people), both intentionally and non-intentionally, and the gripes are in this order: visibility, trunk, auxiliary cargo and price.

Al Oppenheiser is a rare breed of Chief Engineer: he listens to, associates with and works with the enthusiasts. A very cool thing and a great asset to have with a car...

However, based on some of the interviews I've heard with him on the 6th Gen, it seems that maybe too much weight was placed on what the Camaro enthusiasts thought: With the 6th Gen roll-out for 2016, it was said that the Camaro enthusiast focus groups used indicated that they were happy with the looks of the Camaro and didn't think the visibility was an issue. So, the visibility wasn't a big concentration and the looks were kept conservative towards the 5th Gen. I can't comment on the lack of interior auxiliary cargo or the trunk size...

But it seems that the same formula was followed with the 2019 refresh: the enthusiasts cried out about the lack of design progression, so it seems the team went with a drastically evolved look...

I don't work in design, but have design in my family background, and I when I see automobile designs that are not cohesive, meaning 2/3 of the car looks like the designers spoke to each other and the remain 1/3 looks like it came from one person say, "I like the way I did this and I want this on the car", I really wonder what the design approval discussion were like...

I really don't understand using a design for a science-fiction, fantasy movie as THE design for your next or refreshed car look (check this out at 2:35 side note: get a load of 4:24...). Commonizing to the LS/LT front end, with modification to the lower area for SS performance, I think would've been the cheaper and more design-evolving look for Camaro. Furthermore, I do not understand the reason for irrational body lines and design features: the SS Flow-tie, move from the traditional location on the grille, to the middle of front fascia, in front of the crash bar. Why? What is the performance advantage? The grille area was increased over the the previous design. Where is this flow going? How does that look good? The "bro-style" blacked-out center section? Leave that for the 50 people who will do that with vinyl under their own ownership. The oddly added body line around the rear fascia. Why? To make the rear look smaller? It was fine. Now it looks like the car is holding it's skirt up. The incompletely done rear tail lights. I like the design idea. Nice 3D look. Well integrated into the rear fascia - gives the car more character at the rear. However, the top edge was left looking like someone said, "well, I've put enough time into this; I'll just stop here". That "lip" of material at the top edge just makes the tail lights stick out in an oddly incomplete way. To integrate the tail lights, you don't have to change the sheet metal - they could've butted the 3D elements up close to the trunk lid edge and tucked that lip under it.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by lawguy85

Occam's Razor. 90% of the car is the same car that's been in production for years. The shipping process is the shipping process, highly unlikely the refresh has any special concerns. The most likely reason is soft demand.

I'm truly astounded that with all the anecdotal evidence (negative reaction on Camaro/non-Camaro sites alike, literal booing at Camarofest, very few buyers showing off their new cars, people like me and several other who when out and bought a '18 after the reveal, the new front end months after the refresh shipped, a GM site with a great track record saying "this is being fast tracked", low dealer inventory) people still refuse to accept it's likely a dud. I guess it's clearly time for me to give up and just let false narratives propagate, the dearth of reason is insurmountable at this point.

I hear people say this line a lot: "They're designers. They know what they're doing!"

OK... they are people just like everyone else. Just because they have a job does not mean they are automatically a genius or magically know what the future perceptions are. A good design is exactly that: a good design - they don't need time to "warm-up" as they will instantly trigger positive emotions (think about all the great designs in the past, what the public perception was then and what was thought through the years to now; Mustang vs Edsel).

"Warming-up" is just people accepting "that's the way it is and I have to live with it".

Again, I'm not a designer, but this translates to the engineering side: You can have a bad designed car component/aspect that people "warm up to" (learn to live around), and the perception of the situation becomes "OK". At end, the design is still bad (whether pure design or in the execution), otherwise there would be no issue.

That's the way I see it, if I am really truthful to myself, anyway.

Done with my rant...

[50MileSmile]

Originally Posted by bturner2

Being old I can remember this same thing happening to various cars over the ages. ... Ford was famous for this as well with the Cougar/Thunderbird and came close to killing the Mustang with the last gen before the jumping off a bridge with the particularly bad Mustang II. In short they all missed the market and forced designs on their customers that their customers clearly didn't want. ...

For whatever reason it seems there is a burning desire to screw up a good thing. The only way I can reason something like this happens is that non car people somehow get in control of the design team. They then proceed to do unnatural things to a design to reach a larger market. Unfortunately what they end up with is a product that appeals to no one.

Just in the interest of accuracy, the Mustang II was a hit for Ford, finding 386,000 buyers - the best sales year for the car since 1967. And non-car people have been in charge of the auto manufacturers for decades - but the designers are the ones who create the styling cues, good or bad. Their challenge is always to make the second generation (or even the halfway update, like the ‘19 Camaro) look better than the original. Check all your favorite cars; the ones that have had the styling updated halfway through the model cycle rarely are better looking than the originals, although they usually have worthwhile mechanical updates. It’s almost like the designers used up all their best styling ideas on the first iteration, and then have to scramble to come up with something different (and often not better) for the update.

IMHO, the sales failure of the ‘16-‘18 Camaro lies squarely in its styling. Even though it’s downsized, it looks too much like the previous version. Buyers of fun cars look for something new and different, and despite the incredibly good mechanicals, performance and value of the latest Camaros, they have no visual “wow” factor for the average buyer.

[50MileSmile]

Originally Posted by Detroit Muscle

shoot...i dont know what to do now..

Wait a couple of months to see what Chevy does. You don’t want to be driving a new car in the middle of a Detroit winter anyway.

[18ss376]

Now if GM would remove the black wheels, hood & mirrors it would look really good.

[18ss376]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

DUDE, I saw on the pics section, someone who debadged the front bow tie and it looked awesome.

Mine came with the gold bow ties and I replaced them with the black ones, but I am kinda thinking now to get rid of the front bow tie altogether.

I hope the guy doesn't mind, but here is the pic...

Attachment 961735

It's called the gold standard, I love my gold bowtie.
Any future GM vehicles I buy that are not gold I will hydro-dip.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by lawguy85

Let's keep moving the goalpost, such a fun exercise. Is the argument dozens within hundreds of miles from a metro area of 10 million is a good thing?? If you don't see this argument hurt, not helps the assertion that the 2019 is a success or shipping en masse I really don't know what to tell you. The easiest refutation is how many 18s they had when I purchased mine in May or the new '18s my dealer just got/moved already, but I seriously doubt any actual reason would reach a refresh apologist at this point.

Anyway, it's pretty moot to debate until the sales numbers come out in Q4, but I look forward to the mental gymnastics you guys will do to try to spin the data.

My point is that they’re building and shipping them them now when you insinuated they aren’t. I didn’t say they’re selling, but they ARE at dealers.

[DaveC113]

My '18 SS 1LE was delivered on Sep. 10th so I'd guess '19s shipped after that.

[init4fun]

To see how these things are selling simply ask a sales man at a dealer. A buddy of mine works at a chevy dealer near by here. They have a dozen 2019's on the lot and can't give them away. Meanwhile the remaining 2018 are still selling and they are not discounting them.

[cbr1100xx]

Originally Posted by init4fun

To see how these things are selling simply ask a sales man at a dealer. A buddy of mine works at a chevy dealer near by here. They have a dozen 2019's on the lot and can't give them away. Meanwhile the remaining 2018 are still selling and they are not discounting them.

Time for a 20% off red tag on the '19s! Have an ugly sale!

[BMR Sales]

Originally Posted by Cgocifer

Honestly, to save the camaro, they need to fast track a gen 7 with a completely new design to fix the vis issue (doesnt bother me, I'm used to it), implement a sophisticated yet aggressive design that still resembles a camaro, and give the awesome performance platform the class and looks it deserves. The 911 Porsche has kept the same shape and profile for decades yet still looks modern and fresh with the evolution of a great design. Camaro can do the same if GM learns to stop jumping on every new trend. Just create a gorgeous design that still resembles somewhat of a Camaro and it will sell.

I'm still surprised that the pre refresh 6th gen did so poorly. I think it is gorgeous especially in 1LE trim, but I digress.

I agree on a redesign for a Gen7 and not an update. a smaller scale Gen 2 style (but not a copy) with a V8

in regards to the 911, I'm in somewhat agreement with BuckeyeROC and I'm a Porsche Nut (I've owned five 911s). The 911 started out as a small lightweight powerful sportscar. It has become a Bloated Expensive Tourer (except in GT2 or GT3 Modes where it is just bloated)

[Memphis43]

Either one of these would have been fine too.

I actually think the black with the fangs down would look good.


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[RealG]

Props to Chevy store being reactive. it must have been overwhelming negativity coming from the dealerships or some people that they listen to.