Do you think GM missed the ball my making the z/28 a track only car?

[sho928]

Originally Posted by KSCamaro
"The one, single downside of course is the weight. The girl is beautiful inside and out but she is very plump. I am a big fan of Trofeos and burned through many sets- they are super sticky and progressive as they let go and this car will eat those tire$ in three track days, four if you are a six or seven tenth's driver. The marketing implies it is stiffly sprung (coilovers baby!) so I suppose you could pop a set of R6's on and go harass some 'Vette guys most of whom are point and shoot drivers "


To me the weight is a bonus, the reason the Camaro is the most likely car to give me the confidence to drive 10/10 are as follows:
-The heavy and stiffly anchored IRS does not allow any rear wheel steering due to toe changes and or camber changes while undergoing extreme lateral loads as throttle input and or braking loads/unloads rear (changes front to rear balance) not to mention encountering bumps.
This is a problem in past vettes and vipers.
- Heavy gauge steel chassis allows for better structural mounting and performance of roll cage. How do you put in a roll cage in new vette when all you have is thin wall aluminum (thicker at nodes) hydroformed frame and foam core floor?
- Passive safety, no muscle car performs as well in side impact due to expensive decision to stamp body sides in one piece (getting T-boned is common if you spin out), story's of walking away after an SUV runs a red light at 50-mph.

I do not have the confidence or courage to push a vette at better than 8/10
Magnusen was airborne a lot on his crazy Ring lap in an early C6 Z06.

I have not tested the 2014 vette thus will reserve judgement.

[Zfatuated]

Originally Posted by Bad@ssCamaro

There you go Folks! a totally unbiased opinion.

Bravo and Welcome to C5 Hopefully you get to share a few stories in the coming year as you prepare to receive your Z and some adventures as you begin to track it.

Thanks for the welcome! Seems like a great bunch of car guys here. Super excited to learn more about the car as they release more specs. I'm sure there will be some stories

Originally Posted by sho928

Originally Posted by KSCamaro
"The one, single downside of course is the weight. The girl is beautiful inside and out but she is very plump. I am a big fan of Trofeos and burned through many sets- they are super sticky and progressive as they let go and this car will eat those tire$ in three track days, four if you are a six or seven tenth's driver. The marketing implies it is stiffly sprung (coilovers baby!) so I suppose you could pop a set of R6's on and go harass some 'Vette guys most of whom are point and shoot drivers "


To me the weight is a bonus, the reason the Camaro is the most likely car to give me the confidence to drive 10/10 are as follows:
-The heavy and stiffly anchored IRS does not allow any rear wheel steering due to toe changes and or camber changes while undergoing extreme lateral loads as throttle input and or braking loads/unloads rear (changes front to rear balance) not to mention encountering bumps.
This is a problem in past vettes and vipers.
- Heavy gauge steel chassis allows for better structural mounting and performance of roll cage. How do you put in a roll cage in new vette when all you have is thin wall aluminum (thicker at nodes) hydroformed frame and foam core floor?
- Passive safety, no muscle car performs as well in side impact due to expensive decision to stamp body sides in one piece (getting T-boned is common if you spin out), story's of walking away after an SUV runs a red light at 50-mph.

I do not have the confidence or courage to push a vette at better than 8/10
Magnusen was airborne a lot on his crazy Ring lap in an early C6 Z06.

I have not tested the 2014 vette thus will reserve judgement.

You make really great, well thought out points to help me feel better about the weight. And you schooled me on some Vette/Viper specific IRS issues that I was not aware of. Thanks! I looked at the wrecked cars posted in the ZL1 forum and was pleasantly surprised how well they absorbed crashes (lack of cabin deformation). A lot of my track pals feel just like you do about pushing a stock, non-cage Vette.

With that said, weight kills components quicker and (typically) hurts the car pretty much in all aspects on the track. It is the #1 enemy. The engineers did the right thing though and invested in high-quality dampers to control the movement/keep the wheels on the ground and great brakes that will stand up to the weight and track use.

Brakes are the big weak point for most all tracked cars (especially heavy ones!) and GM demonstrated their true commitment to this car and its intended purpose with it's monster brake system. That alone will add at least $10-15K to the price, but separates symbolism (the badge/marketing) from actual substance (your track day experience in real life).

Reuss's comments regarding eliminating the speakers, carpets, inflator kits, etc were heartening and I respect him greatly for "getting it" and doing everything he could. Probably hit the practical limit to what could be achieved without $100k+ MSRP (carbon door panels/fenders/hood/deck lid etc). Might be some room there for the aftermarket guys to step in if it could be determined which items did not compromise crash safety.

[LeanPocket]

I think they dropped the ball and missed the point of the z28 entirely. They said they listened to what we wanted, and the delivered. However; I dont remember any of us wanting a stripped down $60,000+ street legal track car. (Wasn't that the point of the Copo?)


^^ perfectly drawn computer rendering of current GM engineers

'HEY GAIS, WORD ON THE FORUMS IS THAT THEY DONT WANT RADIO OR AC.. IM PRETTY SURE.. SO TAKE THEM MOFO'S OUT.. ZL1 SUSPENSION?? SCREW THAT, LETS REDESIGN EVERYTHING.. 1LE BRAKES ARE TERRIBLE!! LETS THROW ON ZR1 BRAKES.. THAT REAR GLASS WEIGHS WAY TO MUCH, CUT IT IN HALF.. MSRP $65,000?? AHH SCREW IT, ITS A Z28 BABY

IM PRETTY SURE PEOPLE WILL GO BANANAS GAIS!!'

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by 1LEMayhem

I know the history also! Times have changed! A 100lbs will make all the difference in a 2 ton car? For $65,000 I should be able to buy a car with a radio if I want it.

Times have changed for those who aren't truly hardcore. A few of us understand this at the gut-level.

But since performance is more of an absolute thing, shifts in peoples' general attitudes toward more features and conveniences are actually going in the opposite direction. Have been for a while now.

Originally Posted by FINALLYSATISFIED

GMs intent with the 5th Gen refresh Z/28 is track orientated. That's the consumer they are trying to target by bringing back the hallowed name along with the heritage this time around. What's done is done unfortunately for those that are wanting a daily driven Z/28. It's not going to happen at this present time.

Price aside given my current employment situation, I could honestly say that it will have happened as soon as the first one is delivered to its new owner.

Originally Posted by LeanPocket

I think they dropped the ball and missed the point of the z28 entirely. They said they listened to what we wanted, and the delivered. However; I dont remember any of us wanting a stripped down $60,000+ street legal track car. (Wasn't that the point of the Copo?)

If you're confusing the road course Z/28 with the drag-race COPO, you simply don't understand.

If anything, the COPO is even lighter on amenities than the Z/28. But I'm sure that there are a few drag racers who would drive one of those on the street if it was legal to do so. Same deal, different kind of track is all.

'HEY GAIS, WORD ON THE FORUMS IS THAT THEY DONT WANT RADIO OR AC.. IM PRETTY SURE.. SO TAKE THEM MOFO'S OUT.. ZL1 SUSPENSION?? SCREW THAT, LETS REDESIGN EVERYTHING.. 1LE BRAKES ARE TERRIBLE!! LETS THROW ON ZR1 BRAKES.. THAT REAR GLASS WEIGHS WAY TO MUCH, CUT IT IN HALF.. MSRP $65,000?? AHH SCREW IT, ITS A Z28 BABY

IM PRETTY SURE PEOPLE WILL GO BANANAS GAIS!!'

Wanna know something - I don't even care what they called it.

That they built it at all for the few who can truly appreciate it is what matters. If you don't think you fit into that little group, that's not GM's or Chevy's problem. And it's perfectly OK if you don't think the Z/28 fits you.



Norm

[LeanPocket]

Yeah its not for me, however I honestly think they went way over the top.

The point i was trying to coming across was this;
I and many others thought the consensus was everyone wanted a SS with the ls7 option. You know.. the bridge between the SS and the zl1..

keyword being consensus. That's what everyone expected. 1le platform would have been much more than adequate for the average driver. Obviously, that isnt the case now.

Now its SS.. zl1.. and the z28 taking its spot the flagship camaro,.. nobody saw that one coming. Quite honestly, being as badass of a car that it is, I don't think it is what everyone wanted. I mean, why even bother dropping in a ls7, why not just use the ls9 and be an undisputed top dog? They went all out on everything else, might aswell.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

That they built it at all for the few who can truly appreciate it is what matters.

Emphasis in bold.
Those select few will appreciate the car, I won't doubt that.

[KSCamaro]

I'm letting it sink in, it still doesn't register with me that this car is a Z/28.
It's the odd man out, because everything else was made for the road.
Maybe a Z/28 T

This is still the first thing that comes to mind.


Now, I could probably accept a Z/28 SS "street" version but the lineup seems full. 1LE performance with increased HP.

[Mr Twisty]

Originally Posted by LeanPocket

I think they dropped the ball and missed the point of the z28 entirely. They said they listened to what we wanted, and the delivered. However; I dont remember any of us wanting a stripped down $60,000+ street legal track car. (Wasn't that the point of the Copo?)
'

COPO is fast in a straight line... Z/28 is fast in the corners.

[POS Dakota]

Originally Posted by 2010SLVRBULIT

strip it down and jack up the price(on a name)..now that's good business...should've limit the production#s too, then jack up the price some more..
.

copo wha????

[Mr Twisty]

Originally Posted by KSCamaro

I'm letting it sink in, it still doesn't register with me that this car is a Z/28.
It's the odd man out, because everything else was made for the road.
Maybe a Z/28 T

This is still the first thing that comes to mind.


Now, I could probably accept a Z/28 SS "street" version but the lineup seems full. 1LE performance with increased HP.

If you're over 50, and a Camaro nut, this likely comes to mind

[2010SS2SS]

Missed it completely...

The market is limited to road racers and collectors, very FEW people are going to but a car w/o AC or a stereo as a driver. Flame if you want but the truth hurts!

Limited edition and limited target group of buyers...

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by 2010SS2SS

Missed it completely...

The market is limited to road racers and collectors, very FEW people are going to put a car w/o AC or a stereo as a driver. Flame if you want but the truth hurts!

Limited edition and limited target group of buyers...

...BOTH of which are likely OPTIONS...

[Mr Twisty]

Originally Posted by 2010SS2SS

Missed it completely...

The market is limited to road racers and collectors, very FEW people are going to but a car w/o AC or a stereo as a driver. Flame if you want but the truth hurts!

Limited edition and limited target group of buyers...

So?

I reallllyyyyyy like Porsche's... but I don't get on a 911 forum and complain about the price of a GT3. They have plenty of other options for my price range.

The thing that really pisses me off..... Just when I thought I could afford a California, Ferrari builds the FF.... WTF Ferrari????? You lost MY business!

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by LeanPocket

Yeah its not for me, however I honestly think they went way over the top.

Generally unexpected on the outside, probably. But given that there are a few really serious aftermarket-centered Mustangs and Camaros running in amateur competitions such as the Optima Challenge or have gradually become very serious track toys maybe it shouldn't have been considered outside the realm of possibility.

The point i was trying to coming across was this;
I and many others thought the consensus was everyone wanted a SS with the ls7 option. You know.. the bridge between the SS and the zl1..

I see what you're getting at, and I think you've just described the 1LE's mission, which is just enough "softer" for wider acceptance. This one has to sell in larger volume, and by having so many more amenities makes room for the Z/28 for what it is. If there was too much overlap, they might cannibalize sales from each other, and there would still be complaints (why are the two trims so much the same?) and people who wished they'd bought the other one.

keyword being consensus. That's what everyone expected. 1le platform would have been much more than adequate for the average driver. Obviously, that isnt the case now.

The 1LE is still more than adequate for the average or even the somewhat above average driver under the conditions that most of those cars will actually be used. That hasn't changed.

It's just that now there's a car for the very hardcore end of the 1LE-hardcore group that wants still more (less?) than what the 1LE offers.

Now its SS.. zl1.. and the z28 taking its spot the flagship camaro,.. nobody saw that one coming. Quite honestly, being as badass of a car that it is, I don't think it is what everyone wanted. I mean, why even bother dropping in a ls7, why not just use the ls9 and be an undisputed top dog? They went all out on everything else, might aswell.

Because undisputed top dog status in all respects isn't the Z/28's mission. Having top dog road course status is a different story. It is a car with a very narrow focus.

Because there really are a few of us who really would rather have a normally aspirated engine under the hood, given that it provides at least adequate straight line performance. It can be much more rewarding to drive a car "momentum style" than "point and shoot". At least it is if your automotive thinking was influenced more by traditional sports roadsters and road racing than with 1960's muscle cars and the drag strip.



Norm

[mlee]

Originally Posted by Mr Twisty

So?

I reallllyyyyyy like Porsche's... but I don't get on a 911 forum and complain about the price of a GT3. They have plenty of other options for my price range.

The thing that really pisses me off..... Just when I thought I could afford a California, Ferrari builds the FF.... WTF Ferrari????? You lost MY business!

Quite sure we have a complete lineup of 5th Gens in all price ranges...

Z/28 is icing on the cake