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Old 05-03-2008, 01:02 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by LS9CamaroSS View Post
I'm not fine with the "under selling" issue... Back in the 70's the Camaro out sold the Mustang for a few years running and they still wanted to axe it then! i say make it appeal to everyone they can and watch it stick around for a while!
Do you have any idea why they did that?

They did the same thing with the Grand Nationals. 1987 was the best year for them with over 20,000 units. They kept production of the 1987 model going through December to fill orders. It was faster than the Vette that year (and some speculate that this was the reason it was killed off), but was terminated regardless of sales. I know there were emission issues and they had to make a special, lightweight version that got better gas mileage to meet the regs. These "lightweight Grand Nationals" had a WE4 option code instead of the WE2 code for the Grand National package. But even playing around with the models, GM killed it off and went FWD for 1988.

Oh, and a new model can be brought to market in 8 months. It doesn't take 2.5 years with the sophistication of CAD/CAM software these days. Use Caddy's chassis, take the latest engine (LS2?) and toss on a turbo to wake it up. Heck, if the GN could run 13's from the factory with a V6 and a turbo with old fuel management technology, imagine what you could do with a turbo V8? My WE4 is running 11's with a 6-cylinder and getting 25 MPG. C'mon GM, build the thing and get it out. Sell the looks and build your LS3 later. The '67 Camaro wasn't a COPO 427 model! That took a couple of years to get out, but we were able to love the Camaro in the meantime.

I just don't understand GM sometimes.
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Old 05-03-2008, 01:13 AM   #30
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That's a bit harsh, don't you think? Anyways, can you wait just a few months longer? Say, the smack-beginning of 2009? This car will definitely be worth that wait. You'll be cruising in your Stang or Charger wishing you had waited...
It was meant to be harsh. I told the GM reps that very thing to their face on the Hot Rod Power Tour when they had us checking out their prototype to bring back the '57 Nomad. It's how I felt. They failed me. They killed the Camaro and abandoned people like me that have been buying, hot rodding, and racing bowties since the original muscle car era. What was I left with? A FWD Impala? Really? Then they came out with a "hot rod" Cavalier? Are you serious? Why did GM abandon the hot rodders? They came out with the SST and tried to pacify us with that! Heck, I wound up buying a diesel pickup truck and hot rodded that! Sure my Duramax is a hoot to drive (especially when I get to squash a Mustang with it) and I love laying down 780 lb ft of torque on the dyno, but it doesn't have the proper image for my work. I need a good car that's fun to drive yet nice enough to take a client to lunch.

Can I wait a little longer for the Camaro? Yes. I'm back in school now and graduate in the spring (2009). I'll be looking to buy then. We'll see what's available.
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Old 05-03-2008, 01:27 AM   #31
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Why did GM abandon the hot rodders?
Do you think they really would have if it was their decision? I'm talking about gov't regs, and market shifts. If there was still a market for a dozen different sports cars, GM would be the king, like they were in the old days. (They still are in what little market is left for such vehicles.) And the Camaro will own all contenders - that's a given, an expectation, and...well, it's natural!
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Old 05-03-2008, 01:41 AM   #32
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anyone who says its not too long, or its right on time is attempting to convince themselves they dont want the damn car already. i know i want it already and i cant even afford it yet. ha. i am 19... i am going to college this fall and i wont get the car for another two years. but that doesn't mean that GM has already taken their good sweet time to bring this beast to slaughter. now am i saying they should start cutting corners to speed things up? no. i am saying that they have already taken too long. now we better be impressed as shit or i can think of a few people who are going to be pissed.
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Old 05-03-2008, 09:12 AM   #33
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Do you think they really would have if it was their decision? I'm talking about gov't regs, and market shifts. If there was still a market for a dozen different sports cars, GM would be the king, like they were in the old days. (They still are in what little market is left for such vehicles.) And the Camaro will own all contenders - that's a given, an expectation, and...well, it's natural!
You mean it wasn't their decision? Were there government regs for GM only? Why did Ford build the retro-stang while GM played games with a Honda look-alike they called a GTO? What sports car market do you think GM is still king in? Whenever I hear a strong-sounding car these days, it's usually a Mustang making all that noise.

Yes, GM will emerge on top. Their superior designs always do. But their customer service has gone south. They don't seem to care what buyers want and when you have a vehicle problem, good luck. It took two years and a class-action lawsuit to get the speedometer fixed in my pickup!

But I do have to credit GM for longevity. I've killed Ford trucks in 60,000 miles. My older Chevy truck has been beaten, given a new trans, beaten, given new axles (jumping is hard on them), and beaten some more. The engine? 230,000 miles and starts right up. It doesn't smoke and still passes emissions too. Whenever I kill or stick a Ford or Jeep, I go get a Chevy to pull it out.

But I've been waiting a long, long time for GM to build something exciting after they killed off my beloved Camaros.
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Old 05-03-2008, 10:25 AM   #34
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But their customer service has gone south. They don't seem to care what buyers want...
Most of your post is opinion and you're entitled of it...but this part is rubbish. Buyers want SUV/SUT/Crossovers....they want high MPG and low cost...they want good reliability. We are the vast minority, wanting the well-balanced pony car, and the fact we're even getting it is a miracle that we owe completely to them LISTENING to the Camaro fanbase for the last 6 years.
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Old 05-03-2008, 11:30 AM   #35
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GM has a lot riding on this new Camaro platform and they are going to... they have to, make sure it is right. As FBodfather has stated... it will be world class, and to back up that boast they are going to take the necessary time to iron out the wrinkles. I was disappointed that the Camaro died, but happy to see the energy and effort behind the Camaro team to deliver us a product that looks to be worthy to wear the Camaro badge. Sure I would want it sooner but if I have to wait a little bit longer so I have to spend less time at the dealer getting warranty work performed... or spending more time looking at the rear view mirror to see the GT500 then it is all worth it. The people making the most noise about the length of time just don't understand what it takes to bring a car from drafting board to the showroom... I don't even pretend to know half of it. So... long wait yes, too long no.

Where are this weeks spy shots???
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Old 05-03-2008, 11:40 AM   #36
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Most of your post is opinion and you're entitled of it...but this part is rubbish. Buyers want SUV/SUT/Crossovers....they want high MPG and low cost...they want good reliability. We are the vast minority, wanting the well-balanced pony car, and the fact we're even getting it is a miracle that we owe completely to them LISTENING to the Camaro fanbase for the last 6 years.
You know what? You're exactly right. They did listen to the majority of the buying public and gave them what they wanted - heavy duty trucks with whimpy IFS, SSTs, hot rod Cavaliers. I'm just one person that felt abandoned and found it sad that there was no reason for a performance nut like me to look over at the Chevy dealer when I drove by.

So we're finally getting a Camaro. Finally. Personally, I can't wait to see one. Most of the pictures I've seen are just okay, but a few look pretty good. I am full of cynicism, but seeing a new Camaro at the local dealer will be like being reborn! Mine will have a turbo on it as fast as I can figure out where to stuff it in!
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Old 05-03-2008, 01:44 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Congoman775 View Post
anyone who says its not too long, or its right on time is attempting to convince themselves they dont want the damn car already. i know i want it already and i cant even afford it yet. ha. i am 19... i am going to college this fall and i wont get the car for another two years. but that doesn't mean that GM has already taken their good sweet time to bring this beast to slaughter. now am i saying they should start cutting corners to speed things up? no.
See below. I can assure you, I'm not 'convincing myself' of anything.

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You mean it wasn't their decision? Were there government regs for GM only? Why did Ford build the retro-stang while GM played games with a Honda look-alike they called a GTO?
You're comparing Apples to Oranges. The Mustang outsold the Camaro, and both cars sales were dipping anyways. Consumers decided they didn't want as many of these cars anymore. So, when the Camaro was put on the shelf (not killed), the Mustang flourished in a market all to itself. Then Ford decided to redesign; boosting sales even further.

What you're not realizing is that the Camaro COULDN'T come back. The St. Therese plant that is was built at had a contract that caused problems with a new Camaro (I don't know the details). When the "leash" was finally taken off GM, what did we get? A Camaro at the 2006 NAIAS. Then it was greenlighted in August. (I can agree that that announcement should have come sooner). So, from August to October (approval to Production) will be just over 2 years for a BRAND NEW car. Not something slapped on a Caddy Chassis with an existing engine, ect. If GM had done that - we'd have another parts-bin Challenger.

But we're not getting that. We're getting a "class-leading", vastly superior car at a bargain price. Be glad you're holding out: You won't be disapointed.

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What sports car market do you think GM is still king in?
The Corvette, The G8 (yes I realize it just came out), the Cobalt SS (again, I know...). But they still have thier foot in the door, if you take my meaning. The market has shrunk drastically.

EDIT: I just read your post where you said you're hooked. Don't take any of the above personally.
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Old 05-03-2008, 02:32 PM   #38
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I agree Dragoneye, if you wait you will get a worldclass car at an affordable price or you can go out and by a 300hp plastic mustang or a $38,000 challenger. Just be patient and you will be happy once your in the drivers seat.
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Old 05-04-2008, 01:42 PM   #39
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So as long as the market positioning and advertising are based around fuel efficiency and an iconic heritage the Camaro will do fine. However the product mix will have to change; V8's are NOT selling. I just got a call from a Pontiac dealer a few days ago that was marking G8 GT's $3g's over sticker 2.5 months ago and now they're trying their hardest to move every last one because no one wants a gas guzzler. What people do want is more MPG If GM is smart they'll bump the DI 3.6L V6 to 300+ hp and bring out an Ecotec 4 a year or so after launch, and believe me, with the way things are with gas prices that thing WILL sell.
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Old 05-04-2008, 07:04 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Loader View Post
Do you have any idea why they did that?

They did the same thing with the Grand Nationals. 1987 was the best year for them with over 20,000 units. They kept production of the 1987 model going through December to fill orders. It was faster than the Vette that year (and some speculate that this was the reason it was killed off), but was terminated regardless of sales. I know there were emission issues and they had to make a special, lightweight version that got better gas mileage to meet the regs. These "lightweight Grand Nationals" had a WE4 option code instead of the WE2 code for the Grand National package. But even playing around with the models, GM killed it off and went FWD for 1988.

Oh, and a new model can be brought to market in 8 months. It doesn't take 2.5 years with the sophistication of CAD/CAM software these days. Use Caddy's chassis, take the latest engine (LS2?) and toss on a turbo to wake it up. Heck, if the GN could run 13's from the factory with a V6 and a turbo with old fuel management technology, imagine what you could do with a turbo V8? My WE4 is running 11's with a 6-cylinder and getting 25 MPG. C'mon GM, build the thing and get it out. Sell the looks and build your LS3 later. The '67 Camaro wasn't a COPO 427 model! That took a couple of years to get out, but we were able to love the Camaro in the meantime.

I just don't understand GM sometimes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loader View Post
You mean it wasn't their decision? Were there government regs for GM only? Why did Ford build the retro-stang while GM played games with a Honda look-alike they called a GTO? What sports car market do you think GM is still king in? Whenever I hear a strong-sounding car these days, it's usually a Mustang making all that noise.

Yes, GM will emerge on top. Their superior designs always do. But their customer service has gone south. They don't seem to care what buyers want and when you have a vehicle problem, good luck. It took two years and a class-action lawsuit to get the speedometer fixed in my pickup!

But I do have to credit GM for longevity. I've killed Ford trucks in 60,000 miles. My older Chevy truck has been beaten, given a new trans, beaten, given new axles (jumping is hard on them), and beaten some more. The engine? 230,000 miles and starts right up. It doesn't smoke and still passes emissions too. Whenever I kill or stick a Ford or Jeep, I go get a Chevy to pull it out.

But I've been waiting a long, long time for GM to build something exciting after they killed off my beloved Camaros.
Right here is why GM is taking so long to get the car out. So they don't end up with a "honda look-a-like-they-called-a-GTO" Camaro... do you don't realize what is riding on this car? for the age you put down for your self on the age thread you don't show it in patience. They aren't trying to get a "Retro" vehicle out they want a brand new car reminiscent of the old days. the mustang looks waaaaay too much like a first generation mustang and not enough like a new car... This camaro looks a bit like the 69 but it is completely new. The next generation Mustang is supposed to look like a 1970 Mustang. So if you want a car that looks like the Shit you used to race back in the day go by the POS blue oval you despise so much and don't cry too hard when a V6 camaro blows the doors off of your GT...
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Old 05-04-2008, 08:22 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by LS9CamaroSS View Post
Right here is why GM is taking so long to get the car out. So they don't end up with a "honda look-a-like-they-called-a-GTO" Camaro... do you don't realize what is riding on this car? for the age you put down for your self on the age thread you don't show it in patience. They aren't trying to get a "Retro" vehicle out they want a brand new car reminiscent of the old days. the mustang looks waaaaay too much like a first generation mustang and not enough like a new car... This camaro looks a bit like the 69 but it is completely new. The next generation Mustang is supposed to look like a 1970 Mustang. So if you want a car that looks like the Shit you used to race back in the day go by the POS blue oval you despise so much and don't cry too hard when a V6 camaro blows the doors off of your GT...
The way I see it, There is big money in the retro market, and I can see other automakers following GM, Ford, and Dodge
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:45 PM   #42
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See below. I can assure you, I'm not 'convincing myself' of anything.


You're comparing Apples to Oranges. The Mustang outsold the Camaro, and both cars sales were dipping anyways. Consumers decided they didn't want as many of these cars anymore. So, when the Camaro was put on the shelf (not killed), the Mustang flourished in a market all to itself. Then Ford decided to redesign; boosting sales even further.

What you're not realizing is that the Camaro COULDN'T come back. The St. Therese plant that is was built at had a contract that caused problems with a new Camaro (I don't know the details). When the "leash" was finally taken off GM, what did we get? A Camaro at the 2006 NAIAS. Then it was greenlighted in August. (I can agree that that announcement should have come sooner). So, from August to October (approval to Production) will be just over 2 years for a BRAND NEW car. Not something slapped on a Caddy Chassis with an existing engine, ect. If GM had done that - we'd have another parts-bin Challenger.

But we're not getting that. We're getting a "class-leading", vastly superior car at a bargain price. Be glad you're holding out: You won't be disapointed.


The Corvette, The G8 (yes I realize it just came out), the Cobalt SS (again, I know...). But they still have thier foot in the door, if you take my meaning. The market has shrunk drastically.

EDIT: I just read your post where you said you're hooked. Don't take any of the above personally.
I'm not taking any of this personally. I appreciate the responses. The Corvette I put in a league with Vipers, Lotus, and all the others like that of which I can't (or don't want to) afford. I think you got my point that to the average, uneducated consumer it looked like GM killed the Camaro/Firebird and said good-bye to the V8-RWD sports car market. I lump myself in there because when it happened, I walked away. I had no idea there was a restriction of some type that made it impossible for GM to make the Camaro again. When it all happened, we were told it's a done deal and there will NOT be another Camaro. Maybe they had to say that.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Even LS9CamaroSS who called my '71 396 Camaro, my '68 RS Camaro, my '68 RS/SS Camaro, and my '68 455 Firebird "Shit you used to race back in the day". I guess he prefers the much better cars of the late '70s!

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