Some interesting detail on the 2019 Toyota Supra

[Martinjlm]

So there’s a new competitor coming to the mid-sized sports car segment (Camaro, Mustang, M2....Challenger gets lumped in with large cars in most segmentation). The BMW Supra. Ok, sure, it’ll be sold in Toyota dealerships, but the running gear is all Bimmer.

I’m sure most of you are aware it’s coming and that it is the twin of the upcoming BMW Z4, but this article in MotorAuthority.com pulls info from a parts website that clearly states 2.0T and 3.0T paired with ZF 8HP as the powertrain for the Toyota. Keep in mind that in M4 GTS trim, the 3.0T approaches 500 hp. BMW typically doesn’t allow “partners” to use their latest and greatest, so it’s unlikely the Toyota would get the M4 engine, but they could get the 362 hp and even the 425 hp version of the L6TT.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...-parts-website

[DGthe3]

I thought that the Supra was going to be a good bit more expensive than the Camaro & Mustang. Like starting around 40 grand for the base model, then up roughly in line with the Corvette Stingray for the top engine.

Besides, isn't it supposed to be a 2 seater anyway ... again putting it up against the Corvette instead of the Camaro?

[Royal Tiger]

If they priced the 425hp version decently equipped at $50k, it would absolutely steal overpriced Camaro SS sales that are currently MSRP in the same range.

[JerTM]

Not going to lie, I'm pretty disappointed in Toyota right now. First the FR-S/BRZ and now this one? It sounds negative, I just hope it fails miserably. If Toyota has success with things like this who knows how long before all manufacturers take note, then before you know it, there will only be 5-6 different cars just sold under different makes. Pretty much ruins the competition aspect of it and the consumer will end up with the short end of the stick. Don't like the only muscle car offered? It's not reliable? It's slow? Tough for you, it's the only one to buy anyway.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by JerTM

Not going to lie, I'm pretty disappointed in Toyota right now. First the FR-S/BRZ and now this one? It sounds negative, I just hope it fails miserably. If Toyota has success with things like this who knows how long before all manufacturers take note, then before you know it, there will only be 5-6 different cars just sold under different makes. Pretty much ruins the competition aspect of it and the consumer will end up with the short end of the stick. Don't like the only muscle car offered? It's not reliable? It's slow? Tough for you, it's the only one to buy anyway.

This is not a new idea. Fiat sells reskinned Miatas. Chevy recently sold reskinned Nissan vans. VW sold reskinned Caravans. Toyota (inexplicably) sold Cavaliers. Other examples with Toyota include lending the iQ to Aston Martin as the Cygnet & the Matrix to GM as the Vibe. Thats off the top of my head, I'm sure there are countless other examples going back a lot further.

Usually, I think this is done because of a combination of reasons. First, they're expecting low sales. Also, it costs around a billion dollars to develop a new car on an all new platform then get it into production. So unless you can charge a lot of money for the car, it often won't make financial sense to spend so much money for little to no return.

Basically, the options for automakers in these scenarios aren't 'Do it ourselves' vs 'Partner with someone else' its 'Partner' or 'Nothing'.


Although none of this does anything to explain the Toyota Cavalier. They had a better car already in the same segment already.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I thought that the Supra was going to be a good bit more expensive than the Camaro & Mustang. Like starting around 40 grand for the base model, then up roughly in line with the Corvette Stingray for the top engine.

Besides, isn't it supposed to be a 2 seater anyway ... again putting it up against the Corvette instead of the Camaro?

Originally Posted by Royal Tiger

If they priced the 425hp version decently equipped at $50k, it would absolutely steal overpriced Camaro SS sales that are currently MSRP in the same range.

From a content and performance standpoint, the Supra will be in Camaro / Mustang territory. I would even suggest that it will be a notch or two behind both on performance, but may have some other interesting content. It’s only point of commonality with Corvette will be number of seats and steering wheels. I expect pricing will start just below a highly contented Camaro SS / Mustang PP1 Premium and top out just under ZL1 / GT350, though it won’t come anywhere near either for performance. What customers will pay for is the pretty wrapper and some great handling. Look at the Lexus RC-F. What does it compete against? It’s a decent enough performer with red carpet looks. Does not compete directly with Corvette, but more off to the side. Toyota would like for RC-F to compete with BMW M6 and AMG CLS 63 S, but it can’t. Now dial that back a notch to the Supra and what it’s likely to be and you end up with another tweener. Not quite the performance of mid to top end Camaro or Mustang, but better mannered and, in some folks opinions (not mine), more refined looking. And for some people, not American is important.

[JerTM]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

This is not a new idea. Fiat sells reskinned Miatas. Chevy recently sold reskinned Nissan vans. VW sold reskinned Caravans. Toyota (inexplicably) sold Cavaliers. Other examples with Toyota include lending the iQ to Aston Martin as the Cygnet & the Matrix to GM as the Vibe. Thats off the top of my head, I'm sure there are countless other examples going back a lot further.

Usually, I think this is done because of a combination of reasons. First, they're expecting low sales. Also, it costs around a billion dollars to develop a new car on an all new platform then get it into production. So unless you can charge a lot of money for the car, it often won't make financial sense to spend so much money for little to no return.

Basically, the options for automakers in these scenarios aren't 'Do it ourselves' vs 'Partner with someone else' its 'Partner' or 'Nothing'.


Although none of this does anything to explain the Toyota Cavalier. They had a better car already in the same segment already.

Yeah, I know why they do it. Money. I know they've done it before too, doesn't make it any better for competition. But then again, we're all headed toward PODS anyway I guess so what does it matter really.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by JerTM

Yeah, I know why they do it. Money. I know they've done it before too, doesn't make it any better for competition. But then again, we're all headed toward PODS anyway I guess so what does it matter really.

Does it improve competition? No. But since the business case for coming up with a unique in house design is terrible for the majority of these rebadged clones, improving competition wasn't going to happen anyway.

It also doesn't hinder competition for the same reason: a new unique design wasn't going to get made, so its not getting removed from the pool of cars on the market.

From a competition standpoint, they're essentially neutral.

[torqueaddict]

IMO, the Supra's time has come and gone.

[NW-99SS]

Too long to market AKA the NSX.

[BMR Sales]

Originally Posted by JerTM

Not going to lie, I'm pretty disappointed in Toyota right now. First the FR-S/BRZ and now this one? It sounds negative, I just hope it fails miserably. If Toyota has success with things like this who knows how long before all manufacturers take note, then before you know it, there will only be 5-6 different cars just sold under different makes. Pretty much ruins the competition aspect of it and the consumer will end up with the short end of the stick. Don't like the only muscle car offered? It's not reliable? It's slow? Tough for you, it's the only one to buy anyway.

well, if you go back to the 60's GM & Ford did the same thing

Camaro = Firebird
Chevelle = 442, Skylark, GTO/LeMans
Nova = Omega, Ventura, Apollo
Impala = Riviera

Ford = Mercury

[xc_SS/RS]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Too long to market AKA the NSX.

I think the same thing about this as you do. I feel like we have been seeing spy shots for the better part of a decade and the car still isn't on sale. It'll be old news after its first month on sale

[COPO_Chevy]

Originally Posted by BMR Sales

well, if you go back to the 60's GM & Ford did the same thing

Camaro = Firebird
Chevelle = 442, Skylark, GTO/LeMans
Nova = Omega, Ventura, Apollo
Impala = Riviera

Ford = Mercury

Sorry, just a little correction. Riviera was on the E-body plateform. If memory serves me right, 1977 and 1978 were the only B-body framed Rivieras. LeSabre and Wildcat shared the Impala B-body chassis.

[JerTM]

Originally Posted by BMR Sales

well, if you go back to the 60's GM & Ford did the same thing

Camaro = Firebird
Chevelle = 442, Skylark, GTO/LeMans
Nova = Omega, Ventura, Apollo
Impala = Riviera

Ford = Mercury

What I meant was one pickup, designed and built in one plant. One goes to a Mercedes dealership and another goes to a Toyota dealership, Kia, GM all with a different badge on the front but identical othwerwise.