'Muscle Car' or 'Sports car'

[SS PANTHER]

Full suspension with PSS's plus 650hp and most importantly a top that goes down = Both.
I actually consider my car to be a sports sedan. Also, remember 911's are 2+2's.

[Splat]

Originally Posted by Docker

GNX vs gen 5 SS





GNX vs GT500...the GT500 even got a head start....



GNX vs Gen 5 Zl1....where is it?





Can we redefine the class now? Is this not enough proof that a V6 can be defined a muscle car? That muscle cars aren't defined by brute force? But actual performance?

Or are some still decades behind on the definition? Or just decades behind?

No one is saying that a V6 car cant be fast, The GN and GNX were cars way ahead of their times.

If I slap a turbo on a civic, does that mean that its now a muscle car?

What Im trying to say is, Muscle cars were always classified as V8's from the late 50 to early 70's, its just how it was.

Now, can a four cylinder turbo camaro be classified as a muscle car?

I understand that you, or the other guy who bought a V6 camaro bought them for your own reasons, whether it be for fuel economy, the look or the price.

But when push comes to shove, the V8 will always be known as the muscle.

[DonM]

Originally Posted by Welker2

More of a curiosity than anything else, but I have noticed in recent years more & more people are referring to Camaros, Mustangs & Challengers as ‘sports cars’. I’m old school and grew up where these cars were ‘muscle cars.’ I’m just curious as to what other’s think and why. For me it comes down to the definition of a ‘sports car’ versus ‘muscle car’ such as those found in Wikipedia (see below).

Sports Car – “A sports car (sportscar) is a SMALL, USUALLY TWO SEATER, two door automobile designed for spirited performance and nimble handling.[2][3] According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, the first known use of the term was in 1928.[2]
Sports cars may be spartan or luxurious, but HIGH MANEUVERABILITY AND MINIMUM WEIGHT ARE REQUISITE.[4] They may be equipped for racing, "especially an aerodynamically shaped one-passenger or two-passenger vehicle having a low center of gravity and steering and suspension designed for precise control at high speeds” *

Muscle Car – “Muscle car is an American term used to refer to a variety of high-performance automobiles.[1] The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines muscle cars as "any of a group of American-made 2-door sports coupes with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving."[2] A LARGE V8 ENGINE IS FITTED IN A 2-DOOR, REAR WHEEL DRIVE, FAMILY-STYLE MID-SIZE OR FULL-SIZE CAR DESIGNED FOR FOUR OR MORE PASSENGERS. Sold at an affordable price, muscle cars are intended for street use and occasional drag racing.[3][4][5][6] THEY ARE DISTINCT FROM TWO-SEAT SPORTS CARS AND EXPENSIVE 2+2 GTS INTENDED FOR HIGH-SPEED TOURING AND ROAD RACING.”

By these definitions, a Camaro is neither a sports car OR a muscle car. It is not a small, lightweight and nimble two-seater, and it is not a family style or full sized car designed to carry 4 or more passengers (yes a Camaro has a back seat, but can anyone bigger than a 5 y/o really sit in one?).

The Camaro was designed and intended to take on or even take out the Mustang, which was designated a pony car and the Camaro, being designed as it's direct competition, must also then be a pony car, or any competition between the two would be meaningless - apples to oranges.

IMO, a pony car is a hybrid, a cross between a sports car and a muscle car. It is smaller and lighter than a muscle car, but bigger and heavier than a sports car but has the engine of a muscle car and handling more like the sports car than the muscle car. SO while it can be compared to both, it is really neither, it is its own car.

[Smokin19]

Being an old fart that grew up in the "muscle car era" and having owned my share, I share MY opinion. A two seat car was always referred to as a sports car, while any other car with more than two seats could fit into many other designations.

It was when they starting putting "BIG" h.p. motors in cars that some became known as "muscle cars". Even a big two door Impala in 63' with a 409 C.i. was considered a muscle car. While some people owning an Impala with a standard 327 c.i. motor might be a family car.

When the Mustang and Camaro came out they were called "Pony cars", because of the size of them. When Detroit decided to put big hp engines in them they were still called pony cars (in my area). The term "muscle" became synonymous with " High H.P." and could be applied to almost anything beyond a family vehicle.

Using this logic from my dated past, I would still apply the same rules. If you have a car with high H.P. and I mean more than what's average, then you have a "muscle car".

JMO

[Backspin9]

In modern terms I call it a performance car. It has the speed but also good handling capabilities. Pretty much an all-around package.

[SlingShot]

Being born and raised in Detroit, and running the streets of Gratiot and Woodward during the Muscle car era life was fun. A muscle car was just about any mid size car that was released from the factory with a big engine. A 6 cyl would never have been considered a muscle car. The Mustang and Camaro were called Pony cars when first released. Around 1968 those lines began to blur, as those pony cars were coming out with big engines and big power and just blended their way into the rest of the muscle cars.

That whole era was more than just cars, it was also a social attitude as well. We had the big Civil Rights movement to the Viet Nam conflict. The whole era died in 1971, yes our cars are quick, but not muscle cars. Time for this era to have it's own name, what ever that could be. IMO

[Royal Tiger]

Pony car is a good descriptor.

Muscle car is what I went with. I think it's the most appropriate from the choices. As for not holding 4 people, I can get 4 adults in mine and I'm just under 6'2". It's not the most comfortable, but unless you're 300+lbs, or over 6'5", you can get people in the seats behind you.

[Docker]

Originally Posted by Splat

No one is saying that a V6 car cant be fast, The GN and GNX were cars way ahead of their times.

If I slap a turbo on a civic, does that mean that its now a muscle car?

What Im trying to say is, Muscle cars were always classified as V8's from the late 50 to early 70's, its just how it was.

Now, can a four cylinder turbo camaro be classified as a muscle car?

I understand that you, or the other guy who bought a V6 camaro bought them for your own reasons, whether it be for fuel economy, the look or the price.

But when push comes to shove, the V8 will always be known as the muscle.

But can a Honda Civic with just a turbo smoke a Supercharged 6.2? does the V6 civic get said turbo stock from the factory? Does the civic also have a V8 counterpart along side it? Is the civic a coupe with a long hood two doors and four seats? Is the civic RWD? Is the civic made by an American automaker?


I bought the V6 because it was offered at at a retarded price new, runs e87, insurance, faster than my old trans am.

I intend to keep my 3.6 just because I enjoy defending it. It's a disenfranchised underdog, the V6 can't do this or it can't do that, or it it isn't a real camaro, blah blah blah.

Yes the 4cyl camaros have balls, they're muscle.

I'm tired customers shitting on the new 4cyl camaros too, may pick one of those up and drag build out of it just to prove another point.

I'm a stubborn man. I don't care what you or anyone else wants to call the GNX, SVO, Corvair turbo. They all have V8 counterparts, but It's lean muscle, carefully thought out muscle. Not easy muscle...but muscle none the less.

[GMfan454]

Originally Posted by rontammy0

Again... Camaros and Mustangs were called pony cars...this is correct.When you equipped those same cars with higher trim levels that invovled larger engines they entered the muscle car designation. So a Mustang GT 390 was a muscle car....Camaro SS 396 was a muscle car.

What is your source for this?

[gajagfan]

How about muscle cars have to be naturally aspirated......and can't have a catch can!

[rontammy0]

Originally Posted by GMfan454

What is your source for this?

I posted a link a few posts back....American Muscle Car Registery.

http://www.musclecarclub.com/muscle-car-definition/

[JLSuperfly]

Originally Posted by gajagfan

How about muscle cars have to be naturally aspirated......and can't have a catch can!

Are you serious? The engine will blow up into pieces without a catch can.

[Docker]

Originally Posted by gajagfan

How about muscle cars have to be naturally aspirated......and can't have a catch can!

Now you're just making crap up. Lol

If you look outside of Wikipedia, fanboy clubs, and urban dictionary. You'll find the only defining muscle car factors are 2 door, long hood, RWD, sporty, affordable (well I guess the Z/28 is a sports car then) with a powerful engine, or it'll say "hot rod" and even those had 4cyl and 6cyl beasts back in the day. Everyone's just making crap up.

Ps there are naturally aspirated V6's in camaros.

I don't get why everyone's so butthurt about catch cans...I don't have one personally but...

[MLL67RSSS]

Originally Posted by The_Driver

I do try my best to keep the V6 vs V8 debate going. lol! As for the muscle car versus sports car debate, the Camaro is neither. Like the Air Force guy above me has stated, the Camaro is a pony car. A unique segment of it's own that bridges the gap between a true muscle car like the Challenger and a true sports car like the Corvette/Viper/Ford GT.

JFTR the Challenger was considered a "pony car" back in the day. The "muscle car" banner was carried by the mid-size B-bodies, (Road Runner, GTX, Super Bee), not the slightly smaller E-bodies (Challenger, Barracuda)

Originally Posted by GMfan454

What is your source for this?

"Sources" kind of disagree, a pony is a pony, even if it's "got a Hemi," but it did blur the line.

http://www.carsdirect.com/car-buying...f-the-pony-car

Early Pony Car Models

Among the first on the scene were the Chevrolet Camaro, Dodge Challenger and the AMC Javelin along with the Ford Mustang. Even though the term pony car has ties to the Ford Mustang by virtue of its name, the first pony car to arrive in the marketplace was the Plymouth Barracuda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car

However, when it became clear that the Corvair itself was doomed, the more conventional Chevrolet Camaro was introduced.[13] It appeared in 1967, at the time the Mustang received its first major redesign, and was joined by the Camaro-based Pontiac Firebird and the Mustang-based Mercury Cougar. American Motors made its entry late in 1967 with the Javelin.[18] It was described by race driver Gordon Johncock "as a roomy, comfortable, peppy and handsome example of a so-called pony car, the type of automobile that's showing up more and more on US highways."[19] Although U.S. showrooms were awash in pony cars a final contender appeared in 1970, Dodge's Challenger, essentially an enlarged Barracuda.

https://www.heacockclassic.com/artic...can-pony-cars/

Significant 7 pony cars: '67 Z/28, '67 Mustang GT, '69 Trans Am, '70 AAR 'Cuda, '70 Cougar Eliminator, '70 Hemi Challenger, '70 AMC AMX.