ZL1-LSA-MR+LS7+Pedders Coilovers = Z28? - Page 35 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

2cnd chance · 07-08-2011, 04:22 PM

Yes just the stats page in the back of the mag.

ShnOmac · 07-08-2011, 05:33 PM

Not a big fan of a indirect paper race.... way to many variables.

Put them both on the track on the same day with the same tire compounds and I say the GS would have the faster lap times. JMO

EDIT: Did some lap time research and the only track I could come up with that they have both raced at was pretty close.

Still not sure its a good judge..... Different days, Different drivers, 2012 Boss VS 2010 GS.

Pos Make / Model Time Year Power (hp) / Weight (kg) Driven by
1. Nissan GT-R (Mk II) 1:20.25 '11 530 / 1736 Randy Pobst (motortr
2. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Carbon 1:20.43 '11 512 / 1394 Randy Pobst (motortr
3. Ferrari 458 Italia 1:22.30 '09 570 / 1540 Motor Trend
4. Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 1:23.48 '10 558 / 1712 Randy Pobst (motortr
5. Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 1:23.87 '08 647 / 1530 Edmunds
6. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Carbon 1:24.28 '11 512 / 1394 Edmunds
7. Nissan GT-R 1:25.09 '08 479 / 1740 Edmunds
8. BMW M3 Competition Package 1:25.47 '10 426 / 1617 The Smoking Tire
9. Audi R8 V10 Spyder 1:25.61 '10 525 / 1720 Edmunds
10. Ford Mustang Boss 302 LS 1:26.10 '12 446 / 1573 InsideLine
11. Audi R8 4.2 FSI quattro 1:26.92 '06 420 / 1560 Edmunds
12. Porsche Boxster Spyder 1:27.10 '10 320 / 1275 motortrend
13. Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport C6 1:27.29 '10 436 / 1542 Inside Line
14. BMW M3 (E92) 1:27.67 '07 420 / 1619 motortrend
15. Ford Mustang GT 5.0 1:27.76 '11 412 / 1648 motortrend
16. Nissan 370Z 1:28.30 '09 330 / 1583 Road&Track
17. Porsche Cayman S 1:28.91 '05 295 / 1406 Road&Track
18. Shelby GT500 1:29.04 '06 507 / 1807 best motoring
19. Cadillac CTS-V 1:29.20 '05 406 / 1704 Edmunds
20. Porsche 997 Carrera 1:29.25 '04 325 / 1395 Edmunds

http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/wi...of_willow.html

2cnd chance · 07-08-2011, 10:11 PM

I'm guessing it's a tight track by the numbers?

ShnOmac · 07-09-2011, 11:46 AM

Not sure which track it is in the picture but its the second track in the listing.

"Willow Springs International Motorsports Park also includes the following facilities:
Willow Springs Raceway (2.5 mile road course); The Streets of Willow Springs (a 1.8-mile road course); Walt James Stadium (3/8 mi Clay Oval and Paved Oval); Willow Springs Speedway (a lighted 1/4-mile paved oval), Willow Springs Kart Track (a .625-mile, 9-turn paved sprint track); The Balcony (a 1/4-mile paved autocross and drifting track); Horse Thief Mile (1-mile canyon road course with many elavation changes and tight corners); and approximately 160 acres of off-road, mountainous terrain."

http://www.willowspringsraceway.com/...nformation.asp

2cnd chance · 07-09-2011, 12:08 PM

I'm guessing the black course. The longer raceway would show the higher HP cars much faster than the rest.

boxmonkeyracing · 07-09-2011, 02:42 PM

looks like they need to use the motortrend driver. . . notice most of the top are driven by them. so maybe there are seconds to be had. also noting that the weight of both cars is pretty darn close. 31 lbs difference and the mustang has 10 more horses. the stang might even be geared better. oh well I would love to drive a GS. lol.

2cnd chance · 07-09-2011, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

looks like they need to use the motortrend driver. . . notice most of the top are driven by them. so maybe there are seconds to be had. also noting that the weight of both cars is pretty darn close. 31 lbs difference and the mustang has 10 more horses. the stang might even be geared better. oh well I would love to drive a GS. lol.

The weight of the Mustang I think includes the driver.

boxmonkeyracing · 07-09-2011, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

The weight of the Mustang I think includes the driver.

well if they didn't do that with the GS then this comparo is in the mustangs favor to begin with. either way it's a drivers race.

JusticePete · 07-09-2011, 04:14 PM

There are so many factors that go into a run at the track starting with the driver. Other significant variables are the ambient and track temps along with the condition of the track. Running the track the day after a full weekend of racing gives you a well seasoned sticky track. Run the same track after a couple of days of rain with the same ambient and track temps and you'll run slower with the same car and driver. The best heads up comparison will come with the cars being run back to back by the same driver or even better two drivers. Run three sessions the same day and you have really good data logged. Cut and paste the best segments from all the runs and you create a theoretical best lap time that can be used to compare the drivers as well as the cars. That said, the driver and Mustang put up really good times. I tip my hat to them and say well done. Then I grab the GS with my best driver after and intense track use weekend, prep my car like there is no tomorrow, head out to the track and show them where the BOSS and every other title belongs, if I was GM.

JusticePete · 07-09-2011, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

The weight of the Mustang I think includes the driver.

We hit the track with fluids and driver at 4,180 pounds in the Camaro. Same driver in the Mustang was 290 pounds lighter. Both cars were modified which you all know. We move the battery in the Mustang to the trunk for better balance.

91Z28350 · 07-10-2011, 12:51 AM

A Grandsport weighs 3300 lbs. is that what the ls boss weighs as well?

Number 3 · 07-10-2011, 07:48 AM

One could also argue that the 'ring is a better measure. It is with factory drivers who are each trying to show the best they can do for the ranking overall and in class. It is generally their best shot (even though I heard that the recent ZR1 was a one lap and go home shot with no practice, just a rumor though). It's a long challenging course. Now perhaps Ford doesn't like going there or doesn't find it a valuable test. That's fair. But it seems that all of these "Boss times are better than XXX" are from Laguna Seca. From the little bit I understand about Laguna Seca, it doesn't have much of a straight. The longest looks like the short stretch coming out of the cork screw. So a car purely geared and tired for the track with no straight seems like a "set up for that track" game.

Yes a GS is intended to have more track capapbility than a base Corvette. If you get the manual you get dry sump oil system, better brakes and a differential cooler and the wider track from the Z06. But the Z06 is THE track star, not the GS.

Anyone know the top speed of the Boss? Base Corvette is 190. Put the two cars on a track with a 1 mile straight and see what happens.

So on a short course with no way to open it up, I'd call it a drivers race in the Boss and GS. Boss has probably got equal braking, tires and 15 HP to make up for some of the mass. And I would guess that the chassis adjustments were set up specifically for that course.

The Boss is a nice package. Probably will beat the poop out of an SS. But I am really waiting to see a ZL1 on the same course as the Boss. 110 HP can make up for a bit of the weight, and the ZL1 will have significant braking and chassis improvements to go with the hammer under the hood.

Boss might still win, but it won't be easy.

So that gets back to my orignal question in the Z28 threads:

If you can't get better brakes and you can't get more HP (LS7 seems to be the best choice

) than a ZL1 you only have two things left you can do. First is add an adjustable suspension. Second is remove weight.

Pete, you tell us what you think an adjustable suspension can add relative to an MR car. I think what you are getting is the ability to tune the chassis specifically for the track that day vs. one optimized setting, even though MR is adjusting damping according to the input and it doesn't really care what track you are on.

As for weight, you might get a 100 or 150 pounds out if you did some very specific things making the car a bit less desirable as a DD (my opinion). So does 100 to 150 pounds make up for 120 (LS3) or 50 (LS7) HP. Of course you can also say that you are avoiding the mass hit of the SC LSA in the ZL1 so maybe the difference can be as high as 250 pounds if you compare to a ZL1 and not just to an SS.

Aero would be pretty much equal as the frontal area won't change and I think the ZL1 will already have some aero enhancements.

I just think that it is going to be pretty hard to get more than an incremental improvement over the ZL1. I say this only because I know what they are working on and how hard. The ZL1 is MUCH more than an SS with MR shocks and an LSA.

So back to my question (selfish of me. Sorry.) How much better does the Z28 have to be on the track to be a) worth it for you and b) worth it for GM?

And I know the answer for some of you is, "just beat the Boss". But back to the comparison of the GS which started this.....under what conditions? On what track? With what tires?

There, that is enough Sunday morning blathering.

2cnd chance · 07-10-2011, 11:01 AM

I would be satisfied with beating (even if barely) the base boss at the same pricepoint.

JusticePete · 07-10-2011, 11:02 AM

For most drivers and driving conditions the way the MR integrates into the stability system will make them faster around the track. Top tier drivers will do things with the car the MR and stability system won't like and will fight with the driver for control of the car. Keep in mind #3 knows more about the updated system going into the ZL1 than I do and I invite him to post what he can given the restrictions of his position.

A fully adjustable system with remote reservoirs allows the owner to set up the car for the driver, tire compound, track and track conditions. Changing the CG by lowering and changing the height at each wheel in corner weighting delivers many benefits and there is great stuff all over the Internet. This is a bit dated, but it is a good one. http://www.racelinecentral.com/RacingSetupGuide.html

Lowering the CG by itself is a huge plus.
Corner Weighting combined with adjustable dampening can smooth weight transfer and make the car more stable and predictable
Going more advanced and adding left or right hand wedge is possible
Adjusting for different compound tires is yet another
Heat dissipation with remote reservoir is another plus
Adjusting the car to the driver yet another.

Chris Brannon wants his car loose, really loose to suit his driving style. John Buttermore and Stan Wilson are more controlled and want better balance. With a fully adjustable coilover suspension we can setup the car by track, driver and tires. Since we use high silicone cold wound coils there is usually a weight savings.

The Corvette is supposed to be the performance top dog at GM. The ZR1 is clearly that. If I were en engineer on the Camaro at GM I would be headed to the dog house. I would set the benchmark for a Z28 at better than Z06 performance. We got to the Z06 level at Gingerman with our Pedders USA Camaro. It would have been better with a N/A engine and without the blower and hardware up front. We would need between 515 and 530 at the rear wheels NA to be better yet and 100 pound lighter up front. No blower fixes that. The improved rear sway bar geometry is the next big plus. That is in place. #3 ran a great list of how to take weight out of the 5th Gen at minimal cost, although titanium exhaust ain't cheap. I want a square tire and wheel setup and a 3.90 gear. Put the CTS-V two piece rotors on up front with the ZL1 brakes. Add front ducts. Heat extractor hood. Less sound insulation. Move to 18x11 rims with 315s Drop it from the factory. We have cut at least 150 pounds.

There is a Z28 out there waiting to be built. Price is probably the stumbling block as we are chasing cars that retail for $50K or more.

07-08-2011, 05:33 PM	#478
ShnOmac Drives: 2006 Silverado SS, 2009 G8 GT Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: PNW Posts: 13,313	Not a big fan of a indirect paper race.... way to many variables. Put them both on the track on the same day with the same tire compounds and I say the GS would have the faster lap times. JMO EDIT: Did some lap time research and the only track I could come up with that they have both raced at was pretty close. Still not sure its a good judge..... Different days, Different drivers, 2012 Boss VS 2010 GS. Pos Make / Model Time Year Power (hp) / Weight (kg) Driven by 1. Nissan GT-R (Mk II) 1:20.25 '11 530 / 1736 Randy Pobst (motortr 2. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Carbon 1:20.43 '11 512 / 1394 Randy Pobst (motortr 3. Ferrari 458 Italia 1:22.30 '09 570 / 1540 Motor Trend 4. Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 1:23.48 '10 558 / 1712 Randy Pobst (motortr 5. Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 1:23.87 '08 647 / 1530 Edmunds 6. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Carbon 1:24.28 '11 512 / 1394 Edmunds 7. Nissan GT-R 1:25.09 '08 479 / 1740 Edmunds 8. BMW M3 Competition Package 1:25.47 '10 426 / 1617 The Smoking Tire 9. Audi R8 V10 Spyder 1:25.61 '10 525 / 1720 Edmunds 10. Ford Mustang Boss 302 LS 1:26.10 '12 446 / 1573 InsideLine 11. Audi R8 4.2 FSI quattro 1:26.92 '06 420 / 1560 Edmunds 12. Porsche Boxster Spyder 1:27.10 '10 320 / 1275 motortrend 13. Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport C6 1:27.29 '10 436 / 1542 Inside Line 14. BMW M3 (E92) 1:27.67 '07 420 / 1619 motortrend 15. Ford Mustang GT 5.0 1:27.76 '11 412 / 1648 motortrend 16. Nissan 370Z 1:28.30 '09 330 / 1583 Road&Track 17. Porsche Cayman S 1:28.91 '05 295 / 1406 Road&Track 18. Shelby GT500 1:29.04 '06 507 / 1807 best motoring 19. Cadillac CTS-V 1:29.20 '05 406 / 1704 Edmunds 20. Porsche 997 Carrera 1:29.25 '04 325 / 1395 Edmunds http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/wi...of_willow.html Last edited by ShnOmac; 07-08-2011 at 05:55 PM.

07-10-2011, 07:48 AM	#488
Number 3 Hail to the King baby! Drives: '19 XT4 2.0T & '22 VW Atlas 2.0T Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Illinois Posts: 12,171 View My Garage	One could also argue that the 'ring is a better measure. It is with factory drivers who are each trying to show the best they can do for the ranking overall and in class. It is generally their best shot (even though I heard that the recent ZR1 was a one lap and go home shot with no practice, just a rumor though). It's a long challenging course. Now perhaps Ford doesn't like going there or doesn't find it a valuable test. That's fair. But it seems that all of these "Boss times are better than XXX" are from Laguna Seca. From the little bit I understand about Laguna Seca, it doesn't have much of a straight. The longest looks like the short stretch coming out of the cork screw. So a car purely geared and tired for the track with no straight seems like a "set up for that track" game. Yes a GS is intended to have more track capapbility than a base Corvette. If you get the manual you get dry sump oil system, better brakes and a differential cooler and the wider track from the Z06. But the Z06 is THE track star, not the GS. Anyone know the top speed of the Boss? Base Corvette is 190. Put the two cars on a track with a 1 mile straight and see what happens. So on a short course with no way to open it up, I'd call it a drivers race in the Boss and GS. Boss has probably got equal braking, tires and 15 HP to make up for some of the mass. And I would guess that the chassis adjustments were set up specifically for that course. The Boss is a nice package. Probably will beat the poop out of an SS. But I am really waiting to see a ZL1 on the same course as the Boss. 110 HP can make up for a bit of the weight, and the ZL1 will have significant braking and chassis improvements to go with the hammer under the hood. Boss might still win, but it won't be easy. So that gets back to my orignal question in the Z28 threads: If you can't get better brakes and you can't get more HP (LS7 seems to be the best choice ) than a ZL1 you only have two things left you can do. First is add an adjustable suspension. Second is remove weight. Pete, you tell us what you think an adjustable suspension can add relative to an MR car. I think what you are getting is the ability to tune the chassis specifically for the track that day vs. one optimized setting, even though MR is adjusting damping according to the input and it doesn't really care what track you are on. As for weight, you might get a 100 or 150 pounds out if you did some very specific things making the car a bit less desirable as a DD (my opinion). So does 100 to 150 pounds make up for 120 (LS3) or 50 (LS7) HP. Of course you can also say that you are avoiding the mass hit of the SC LSA in the ZL1 so maybe the difference can be as high as 250 pounds if you compare to a ZL1 and not just to an SS. Aero would be pretty much equal as the frontal area won't change and I think the ZL1 will already have some aero enhancements. I just think that it is going to be pretty hard to get more than an incremental improvement over the ZL1. I say this only because I know what they are working on and how hard. The ZL1 is MUCH more than an SS with MR shocks and an LSA. So back to my question (selfish of me. Sorry.) How much better does the Z28 have to be on the track to be a) worth it for you and b) worth it for GM? And I know the answer for some of you is, "just beat the Boss". But back to the comparison of the GS which started this.....under what conditions? On what track? With what tires? There, that is enough Sunday morning blathering. __________________ "Speed, it seems to me, provides the one genuinely modern pleasure." - Aldous Huxley

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07-08-2011, 04:22 PM	#477
2cnd chance Too Many Great Choices Drives: Grand Sport/Z07 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: A Mountain Road Posts: 7,454	Yes just the stats page in the back of the mag.

07-08-2011, 10:11 PM	#479
2cnd chance Too Many Great Choices Drives: Grand Sport/Z07 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: A Mountain Road Posts: 7,454	I'm guessing it's a tight track by the numbers?

07-09-2011, 11:46 AM	#480
ShnOmac Drives: 2006 Silverado SS, 2009 G8 GT Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: PNW Posts: 13,313	Not sure which track it is in the picture but its the second track in the listing. "Willow Springs International Motorsports Park also includes the following facilities: Willow Springs Raceway (2.5 mile road course); The Streets of Willow Springs (a 1.8-mile road course); Walt James Stadium (3/8 mi Clay Oval and Paved Oval); Willow Springs Speedway (a lighted 1/4-mile paved oval), Willow Springs Kart Track (a .625-mile, 9-turn paved sprint track); The Balcony (a 1/4-mile paved autocross and drifting track); Horse Thief Mile (1-mile canyon road course with many elavation changes and tight corners); and approximately 160 acres of off-road, mountainous terrain." http://www.willowspringsraceway.com/...nformation.asp

07-09-2011, 12:08 PM	#481
2cnd chance Too Many Great Choices Drives: Grand Sport/Z07 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: A Mountain Road Posts: 7,454	I'm guessing the black course. The longer raceway would show the higher HP cars much faster than the rest.

07-09-2011, 04:14 PM	#485
JusticePete Drives: Camaro Justice Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 20,174	There are so many factors that go into a run at the track starting with the driver. Other significant variables are the ambient and track temps along with the condition of the track. Running the track the day after a full weekend of racing gives you a well seasoned sticky track. Run the same track after a couple of days of rain with the same ambient and track temps and you'll run slower with the same car and driver. The best heads up comparison will come with the cars being run back to back by the same driver or even better two drivers. Run three sessions the same day and you have really good data logged. Cut and paste the best segments from all the runs and you create a theoretical best lap time that can be used to compare the drivers as well as the cars. That said, the driver and Mustang put up really good times. I tip my hat to them and say well done. Then I grab the GS with my best driver after and intense track use weekend, prep my car like there is no tomorrow, head out to the track and show them where the BOSS and every other title belongs, if I was GM.

07-10-2011, 12:51 AM	#487
91Z28350 Drives: 2012 GT500 SVTPP 2010 Traverse LTZ Join Date: May 2009 Location: Roanoke,TX Posts: 665	A Grandsport weighs 3300 lbs. is that what the ls boss weighs as well?

07-10-2011, 11:01 AM	#489
2cnd chance Too Many Great Choices Drives: Grand Sport/Z07 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: A Mountain Road Posts: 7,454	I would be satisfied with beating (even if barely) the base boss at the same pricepoint.

07-10-2011, 11:02 AM	#490
JusticePete Drives: Camaro Justice Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 20,174	For most drivers and driving conditions the way the MR integrates into the stability system will make them faster around the track. Top tier drivers will do things with the car the MR and stability system won't like and will fight with the driver for control of the car. Keep in mind #3 knows more about the updated system going into the ZL1 than I do and I invite him to post what he can given the restrictions of his position. A fully adjustable system with remote reservoirs allows the owner to set up the car for the driver, tire compound, track and track conditions. Changing the CG by lowering and changing the height at each wheel in corner weighting delivers many benefits and there is great stuff all over the Internet. This is a bit dated, but it is a good one. http://www.racelinecentral.com/RacingSetupGuide.html Lowering the CG by itself is a huge plus. Corner Weighting combined with adjustable dampening can smooth weight transfer and make the car more stable and predictable Going more advanced and adding left or right hand wedge is possible Adjusting for different compound tires is yet another Heat dissipation with remote reservoir is another plus Adjusting the car to the driver yet another. Chris Brannon wants his car loose, really loose to suit his driving style. John Buttermore and Stan Wilson are more controlled and want better balance. With a fully adjustable coilover suspension we can setup the car by track, driver and tires. Since we use high silicone cold wound coils there is usually a weight savings. The Corvette is supposed to be the performance top dog at GM. The ZR1 is clearly that. If I were en engineer on the Camaro at GM I would be headed to the dog house. I would set the benchmark for a Z28 at better than Z06 performance. We got to the Z06 level at Gingerman with our Pedders USA Camaro. It would have been better with a N/A engine and without the blower and hardware up front. We would need between 515 and 530 at the rear wheels NA to be better yet and 100 pound lighter up front. No blower fixes that. The improved rear sway bar geometry is the next big plus. That is in place. #3 ran a great list of how to take weight out of the 5th Gen at minimal cost, although titanium exhaust ain't cheap. I want a square tire and wheel setup and a 3.90 gear. Put the CTS-V two piece rotors on up front with the ZL1 brakes. Add front ducts. Heat extractor hood. Less sound insulation. Move to 18x11 rims with 315s Drop it from the factory. We have cut at least 150 pounds. There is a Z28 out there waiting to be built. Price is probably the stumbling block as we are chasing cars that retail for $50K or more.