*Pics* Why you should do a Solid Isolator Coupler...

[silverds]

The performance shops who start these threads are knowledgeable and competent and all are in business to support the enthusiast and make money. There is and always will be stress in the coupling between those two interests. Unfortunately, there is no perfect solution that balances both without some friction.

We as consumers have to educate ourselves so we can recognize when the line shifts away from our best interests and towards increasing profits for the product provider. If I were in business to make money, I would sell solid couplers and replacement superchargers. Because, that's a WIN! / "win" as long as the customer believes it.

[6710camaro]

Does the isolator need to be removed by a shop, or can this be done in the garage? any special tools?

[silverds]

Here's a presentation of the inner workings of the Eaton TVS2300 used on the ZR1. A lot of great information is communicated in this presentation. At the 1:00 minute mark, pay close attention to the explanation of the inner workings of the snout and isolator coupler.




Although, these are different model superchargers, the process to change the coupler is virtually the same.

[Modern07]

From my understanding, the reason people do the swap is to get rid of the awful rattling noise, rather than to fix anything that may break.

So for those that do not want the rattle, change it to the solid version.

I only changed mine because it was already tore down and so it made sense to me, as I didn't want the rattle to become an annoying problem further down the line

[djnice]

Originally Posted by silverds

The performance shops who start these threads are knowledgeable and competent and all are in business to support the enthusiast and make money. There is and always will be stress in the coupling between those two interests. Unfortunately, there is no perfect solution that balances both without some friction.

We as consumers have to educate ourselves so we can recognize when the line shifts away from our best interests and towards increasing profits for the product provider. If I were in business to make money, I would sell solid couplers and replacement superchargers. Because, that's a WIN! / "win" as long as the customer believes it.

I like what you are saying in these last few posts, but could it be the solid isolator made of polymer or rubberized material also offers adequate cusion/isolation and is quiter than a spring? Another thing, does GM use a solid isolater on the 2300? I didn't look at the videos yet, but I thought GM had break aways showing a solid isolator on one of the supercharger versions.

I like the idea of grease on the spring and shaft to quit it down.

[BaylorCamaro]

What I don't understand is why don't similar designed blowers use an isolator coupler like this. As far as I am aware the GT500 doesn't.

[Matt @ FSP]

Originally Posted by silverds

If I were in business to make money, I would sell solid couplers and replacement superchargers. Because, that's a WIN! / "win" as long as the customer believes it.

I'm not here to get into an arguement over sales marketing.. It's a $60 piece, it's not the biggest upsell in the world at all, we barely make anything by the time it ships to us. Ask any of my customer's out there, there is no way I would ever put my profit margin on the line vs. a customer's best interest. As far as experience, I have been involved in a lot of TVS projects across the board from GM ZR1/CTS-V/ZL1 to the GT500's, and aftermarket TVS blowers, I am not just shooting from the hip to endorse a product we make little to no profit on. This is pretty insulting to say the least.

Now to get back to the topic at hand...

You can see the reason clearly on why to change this isolator. There are numerous other SC systems that do not use this style isolator and instead use a solid isolator, including MANY Eaton models (M62/M90 Cobalt SC / Grand Prix models). You can clearly see the damage done from the tensioner isolator on the shaft, the blower will not fall apart because of this. However, most people with 60k+ cars do not want to hear the answer of don't worry deal with the rattle. Also when we start spinning up these blowers with aftermarket pulleys, increasing load, it's never a bad idea to upgrade parts around these pulleys.

Like I said before, every single CTS-V/ZR-1/ZL1 that we have ever touched has a solid isolator in it, there is no choice it is part of the package with the upper pulley.

---------------------------

Here is a media drawing released from GM in late 2012 that actually identifies a solid coupler being used in the LSA motors.. Unfortunately that has not happened yet. There were talks that the new supercharger kit part number 19301022 includes a solid isolator. I can neither verify nor deny that, so take that with a grain of internet salt rumors!



---------------------------

Oh since you have referenced the M62/M90 EAtons in your post.. Do you happen to know that they do NOT have a tensioner spring isolator on them, and rather have a solid isolator that you claim is NO good... Here is a picture of the Eaton solid coupler used on M62/M90 and other model superchargers factory from Eaton/OEM manufacturers. Looks pretty close to the aftermarket ones for the TVS huh.

[djnice]

When you rotate the pully back and forth does the spring isolator have 10 or so degrees of slack in it?

What are the solid isolators made of?

[silverds]

Originally Posted by silverds

The performance shops who start these threads are knowledgeable and competent and all are in business to support the enthusiast and make money. There is and always will be stress in the coupling between those two interests. Unfortunately, there is no perfect solution that balances both without some friction.

We as consumers have to educate ourselves so we can recognize when the line shifts away from our best interests and towards increasing profits for the product provider.

If I were in business to make money, I would sell solid couplers and replacement superchargers. Because, that's a WIN! / "win" as long as the customer believes it.

Originally Posted by Matt @ FSP

I'm not here to get into an arguement over sales marketing.. It's a $60 piece, it's not the biggest upsell in the world at all, we barely make anything by the time it ships to us. Ask any of my customer's out there, there is no way I would ever put my profit margin on the line vs. a customer's best interest. As far as experience, I have been involved in a lot of TVS projects across the board from GM ZR1/CTS-V/ZL1 to the GT500's, and aftermarket TVS blowers, I am not just shooting from the hip to endorse a product we make little to no profit on. This is pretty insulting to say the least.

I'm sorry you only focused on the negative portion of my post. I re-quoted my entire post and emboldened the positive portion, I hope this helps to assuage your hurt feelings.

I'm sure a $60.00 part does not significantly increase your profits however, labor costs being what they are...well... But I'm not here to get into an argument over how some small businesses may or may not market inexpensive products to increase profits through associated labor charges.

Originally Posted by DangerZL1

I was quoted around $350 for replacing just the coupler, so I decided to wait.

OUCH! That's a lot of labor for a $60.00 part.

Originally Posted by Matt @ FSP

Now to get back to the topic at hand...

Indeed...let's

Originally Posted by Matt @ FSP

You can see the reason clearly on why to change this isolator. There are numerous other SC systems that do not use this style isolator and instead use a solid isolator, including MANY Eaton models (M62/M90 Cobalt SC / Grand Prix models). You can clearly see the damage done from the tensioner isolator on the shaft, the blower will not fall apart because of this. However, most people with 60k+ cars do not want to hear the answer of don't worry deal with the rattle. Also when we start spinning up these blowers with aftermarket pulleys, increasing load, it's never a bad idea to upgrade parts around these pulleys.

Yes we can clearly see in your pictures some galling of the shaft and your dirty finger. Truly alarming stuff...Makes me want to run out and buy a shiny new solid isolator for $60.00 and $300.00 and some odd dollars for labor from any one of my competent local tuners.

I noticed you never posted what happens to a $60.00 coupler after it is exposed to the stresses between the input shaft and the rotors. Let me help.

Best Case


Worst Case

Originally Posted by Matt @ FSP

Like I said before, every single CTS-V/ZR-1/ZL1 that we have ever touched has a solid isolator in it, there is no choice it is part of the package with the upper pulley.

I'm not sure I understand? Are you saying that all the CTS-V/ZR-1/ZL1 that you've worked on came from the factory with the solid coupler or are you saying that every CTS-V/ZR-1/ZL1 you work on ends up leaving your shop with a solid coupler?

Nevermind...I don't care.

Originally Posted by Matt @ FSP

Here is a media drawing released from GM in late 2012 that actually identifies a solid coupler being used in the LSA motors.. Unfortunately that has not happened yet. There were talks that the new supercharger kit part number 19301022 includes a solid isolator. I can neither verify nor deny that, so take that with a grain of internet salt rumors!

Umm? So what?

Here's a media picture of the Gear shift lever with a ZL1 embossed plaque. It didn't make it into production either. They were probably in talks that the gear shift lever would have this but I can verify without any doubt that they have, so far, decided not to. LOL

Originally Posted by Matt @ FSP

Oh since you have referenced the M62/M90 EAtons in your post.. Do you happen to know that they do NOT have a tensioner spring isolator on them, and rather have a solid isolator that you claim is NO good... Here is a picture of the Eaton solid coupler used on M62/M90 and other model superchargers factory from Eaton/OEM manufacturers. Looks pretty close to the aftermarket ones for the TVS huh.

I did know that actually. Did you happen to know they are older 5th generation supercharges with three lobe rotors and a solid coupler that wears out and cause a noise that sounds like marbles rattling in a can?

Did you happen to know that the TVS is the "next" generation with multiple improvements over the older generation including the, apparently optional, spring loaded coupler.

See, we can both play the condescending "Did you know?" game.

Looks pretty close to you getting heckled right off your snake oil peddling soapbox huh?

[Matt @ FSP]

silverds: Thank you for your information added to the post.

Have a good one.

[silverds]

Originally Posted by Matt @ FSP

silverds: Thank you for your information added to the post.

Have a good one.

Thank YOU, Matt. It was a pleasure discussing it with you.

[Adadda]

[QUOTE=silverds;6851090]I'm sorry you only focused on the negative portion of my post. I re-quoted my entire post and emboldened the positive portion, I hope this helps to assuage your hurt feelings.

I'm sure a $60.00 part does not significantly increase your profits however, labor costs being what they are...well... But I'm not here to get into an argument over how some small businesses may or may not market inexpensive products to increase profits through associated labor charges.



OUCH! That's a lot of labor for a $60.00 part.


Indeed...let's


Yes we can clearly see in your pictures some galling of the shaft and your dirty finger. Truly alarming stuff...Makes me want to run out and buy a shiny new solid isolator for $60.00 and $300.00 and some odd dollars for labor from any one of my competent local tuners.

I noticed you never posted what happens to a $60.00 coupler after it is exposed to the stresses between the input shaft and the rotors. Let me help.

Best Case


Worst Case









I'm not sure I understand? Are you saying that all the CTS-V/ZR-1/ZL1 that you've worked on came from the factory with the solid coupler or are you saying that every CTS-V/ZR-1/ZL1 you work on ends up leaving your shop with a solid coupler?

Nevermind...I don't care.



Umm? So what?

Here's a media picture of the Gear shift lever with a ZL1 embossed plaque. It didn't make it into production either. They were probably in talks that the gear shift lever would have this but I can verify without any doubt that they have, so far, decided not to. LOL






I did know that actually. Did you happen to know they are older 5th generation supercharges with three lobe rotors and a solid coupler that wears out and cause a noise that sounds like marbles rattling in a can?

Did you happen to know that the TVS is the "next" generation with multiple improvements over the older generation including the, apparently optional, spring loaded coupler.

See, we can both play the condescending "Did you know?" game.

Looks pretty close to you getting heckled right off your snake oil peddling soapbox huh?[/


Dang man. You are one smart cookie. Lol. Let me guess you are always the only right guy in the room everywhere you go. There are tons of people using the solid coupler with no negative impact as this is nothing new and has been out forever. It's one of those things some will want it some wont now go have mommy run you to get a happy meal and STFU.

[*007]

Originally Posted by silverds

Why has it become so difficult to understand.

The isolator is a coupling. A coupling is simply the connection between the input and output of a drive.

The reason it's called an Isolator is because it isolates the irregular oscillating motion of the engine crank from the rotor timing gears of the supercharger by absorbing shock.

When your pistons fire, they send a violent pulse that is transmitted from the piston head down through the rod into the crankshaft. The pulse is violent enough to actually cause your crankshaft to twist some fraction of a degree. At the end of your crankshaft is a harmonic balancer that has two purposes, to protect your crankshaft from harmonic vibration at specific frequencies and to minimize shock transmitted through your drive belt to your accessories. (i.e. HVAC Compressor, Water Pump, Alternator, and Supercharger)

The harmonic balancer does not completely eliminate vibration from being transmitted through the drivebelt, it only reduces it. So shock is still being transmitted through the drivebelt. External to the supercharger, there is one coupling between the drivebelt and the pulley. Inside the supercharger there is another coupling from the input shaft to the Timing Gears, and then another coupling between the teeth of the two gears.

So there are two "isolators" buffering the violent oscillating torque of the crank shaft and the relatively delicate teeth of the timing gears between your rotors. The Harmonic balancer and the internal isolator coupler.

Removing the isolating (shock-absorbing) coupling and replacing it with a rigid (non-shock-absorbing coupling) only serves to increase stress on the teeth of the timing gears. If you are concerned about the long-term serviceability of your supercharger, why would you do this? To protect a sacrificial part of the coupling whose only purposes are to keep the coupling fixed around a central axis and to provide resistance to the spring in the isolator? To reiterate, this shaft is sacrificial. It is intented to be galled by the spring until it fits snuggly in the grooves just like Memory foam.

Fantastic explanation! Thanks for the clarity, precision, and logic.

[Matt @ FSP]

Originally Posted by BaylorCamaro

What I don't understand is why don't similar designed blowers use an isolator coupler like this. As far as I am aware the GT500 doesn't.

Very observant Baylor... No the Ford TVS blowers do NOT use a tensioner spring isolator...



Ah silverds: that is an exploded view of a GT500 TVS... Let me explain a bit further here about what is inside the diagram that you are showing.. There are no complaints about the isolator noise in this diagram you show, because it is solid from the factory Eaton/Ford supercharger. The other nice part about the Ford's is that there is plenty of room on the snout to change pulleys with the snout on the car without removing/lifting the blower. Without the isolator issue, you don't need to take apart the snout