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Old 05-05-2011, 03:33 PM   #43
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The Mustang's sales have actually doubled since the Camaro came out in 2009. I'm not sure if it is just the interest in the market or the new engine or what. There are $2000 factory incentives on 2012's, but that isn't really that much.
If the 2014 Mustang is leaving the lots on a 4 to 1 ratio and is running circles around the 2014 Camaro, it will entice GM to push the 6th Gen out sooner. Ford's profits on the Mustang are high, so high that they can pull a crazy stunt like this just for bragging rights...
Let's see, 2009 Mustang was a short 7 month production run year, 2010 was 15 months...maybe, just maybe that had something to do with their higher production from 09.
$2000 ain't much huh, well a buddy here at work wanted to get a Camaro, but with that nice incentive, their standard lower cost and extra moving by the dealer...it was enough to move him to a Stang. If $2000 ain't much, go ahead and send a check to me.
You must be smoking good stuff if you dream of Stangs, today or tomorrow moving at a 4 to 1 level over Camaro's...let me know if you need someone to take that bet.
Bragging rights... but Ford brass when questioned about being outsold, are insisting they aren't in it for bragging rights...yeah, right, you know it's eating into their crawl big time.
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Old 05-05-2011, 03:49 PM   #44
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Of those delivered, how many were CONVERTIBLES?
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Old 05-05-2011, 03:52 PM   #45
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The sales of the 2005 Mustang were huge, there were 166,000 sold in the US alone and another 160,000 sold in 2006. It was originally projected that the Camaro would sell 150,000 in its first year but went on to sell about 60,000. The best case scenario for GM would be that the current sales trend continues and GM would not be forced to redesign the Camaro until 2016 for a MY17 Camaro. That would give the 5th Gen a solid 7 year production run and R&D would definitely be paid off and additional profits could be used for the 6th Gen as well. Reality though, will see the sales begin to dip during this year. 10,000 units is good for the current situation and the convertible was responsible for that and incentives will pick up very soon to help mitigate that natural sales dip. The Mustang's sales have actually doubled since the Camaro came out in 2009. I'm not sure if it is just the interest in the market or the new engine or what. There are $2000 factory incentives on 2012's, but that isn't really that much. The fact that I can get a 2012 Premium GT with 3.73's, Brembo's and 401a leather for $33,000 is very attractive... If I didn't own a 2011, I would be buying a 2012...

Whether or not GM decides to take the Camaro out to 2017 will depend on the sales boom the 2014 Mustang creates. If the 2014 Mustang is leaving the lots on a 4 to 1 ratio and is running circles around the 2014 Camaro, it will entice GM to push the 6th Gen out sooner. If GM can wait... they should.. Then there is the 2013 Mustang refresh... I believe that the 2013 model year will be a long one, 16 months in fact, so a minor refresh will help... Ford's profits on the Mustang are high, so high that they can pull a crazy stunt like this just for bragging rights...
Wait...does that include Brembo's on front AND rear?
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:12 PM   #46
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Thanks for the data, and "thePill" for the extra commentary as well.

I would love to see this done as a stacked bar chart delineating the breakdown of coups and verts for both the 'stang and the Camaro, but it doesn't look like that data is easily accessible, and I don't think spasticsquirrel is that reliable for total counts, just trends. I can never get it to work for too much granularity for me anyway.
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:33 PM   #47
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Nope. Still no "Mustang" in the site name.....
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Old 05-06-2011, 04:12 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by FirstandFifthGen View Post
Let's see, 2009 Mustang was a short 7 month production run year, 2010 was 15 months...maybe, just maybe that had something to do with their higher production from 09.
$2000 ain't much huh, well a buddy here at work wanted to get a Camaro, but with that nice incentive, their standard lower cost and extra moving by the dealer...it was enough to move him to a Stang. If $2000 ain't much, go ahead and send a check to me.
You must be smoking good stuff if you dream of Stangs, today or tomorrow moving at a 4 to 1 level over Camaro's...let me know if you need someone to take that bet.
Bragging rights... but Ford brass when questioned about being outsold, are insisting they aren't in it for bragging rights...yeah, right, you know it's eating into their crawl big time.
The 2009 Mustang's production was cut short but it wasn't a 7 month model year, production was cut over the entire 12 months to limit the numbers due to the 2010 redesign. The 2010 Mustang's production was also limited and it sure wasn't a 15 month model year. Production was limited due to preorders of the 2011 5.0 and stopped sometime during Q1 2010. Ford has been limiting production on the Mustang since 2009 to accurately produce the amount that was being sold. At the end of the model's life, it is important to not over produce the product to maximize profits. The is no reason Ford should be producing 100,000+ units now, nobody wants to buy a S197 Mustang anymore... everyone already bought one.

Back in 2000-2002, Mustang outsold the Camaro/Firebird on a ratio of 4:1. Currently, it is almost 1:1 and will remain that way until the Mustang is redesigned in 2014. In 2014, Ford will offer the 2.0 Ecoboost Inline 4 cylinder in the Mustang for the first time since the 1980's. The sales volume on the 2.0E will make up more than 60% of the Mustang's sales and could mirror the sales of other Ford Ecoboost 4's and economy engine cars such as the Focus and Fiesta. With a new model and offering the 275hp Ecoboost 4, it is very possible the Mustang will out sell the tired Camaro on a ratio of 4:1. A fuel efficient sports coupe/convertible will sell very well, especially in new skin and the Mustang name attached to it. Depending on the sales success of tyhe new Mustang, the Camaro may be forced to be redesigned earlier than expected. I myself am in the market for a 2014 2.0 Ecoboost convertible Mustang, even more so if it comes with a 35MPG highway rating.

Ford makes adjustments to brag, regardless of what they tell the media. Ford also commented that Flatrock only operates with one shift... Ford cannot physically sell anymore Mustang's... It is impossible.. The most important thing now is to focus on production numbers associated with actual sales.. The S197 was very successful, no need to make any last minute mistakes...

Edit: By the time 2014 rolls around, the 5th Gen will be dragging it's feet in sales. The more Camaro's that sell today the less Camaro's will sell tomorrow. By about 2012-13, the 5th Gen will be up for a mid model refresh or perhaps even around the same time Ford goes public with the 50th Anniversary Mustang to shush the buzz a little. We’re looking at a good 200 pound weight reduction not counting the 4 cylinder which will obviously be the lightest offering. The dimensions should be very close to what is available today or somewhat similar to the M3's. The physical size cannot be too much smaller as Ford still needs to squeeze the 5.0 between the strut towers and the length and wheelbase would look awkward if the track width remains the same.

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Old 05-06-2011, 04:30 AM   #49
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Nope. Still no "Mustang" in the site name.....
Sorry for all the Mustang talk, for some reason I cannot stop talking about them...
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Old 05-06-2011, 04:26 PM   #50
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The 2009 Mustang's production was cut short but it wasn't a 7 month model year, production was cut over the entire 12 months to limit the numbers due to the 2010 redesign. The 2010 Mustang's production was also limited and it sure wasn't a 15 month model year. Production was limited due to preorders of the 2011 5.0 and stopped sometime during Q1 2010. Ford has been limiting production on the Mustang since 2009 to accurately produce the amount that was being sold. At the end of the model's life, it is important to not over produce the product to maximize profits. The is no reason Ford should be producing 100,000+ units now, nobody wants to buy a S197 Mustang anymore... everyone already bought one.

Back in 2000-2002, Mustang outsold the Camaro/Firebird on a ratio of 4:1. Currently, it is almost 1:1 and will remain that way until the Mustang is redesigned in 2014. In 2014, Ford will offer the 2.0 Ecoboost Inline 4 cylinder in the Mustang for the first time since the 1980's. The sales volume on the 2.0E will make up more than 60% of the Mustang's sales and could mirror the sales of other Ford Ecoboost 4's and economy engine cars such as the Focus and Fiesta. With a new model and offering the 275hp Ecoboost 4, it is very possible the Mustang will out sell the tired Camaro on a ratio of 4:1. A fuel efficient sports coupe/convertible will sell very well, especially in new skin and the Mustang name attached to it. Depending on the sales success of tyhe new Mustang, the Camaro may be forced to be redesigned earlier than expected. I myself am in the market for a 2014 2.0 Ecoboost convertible Mustang, even more so if it comes with a 35MPG highway rating.

Ford makes adjustments to brag, regardless of what they tell the media. Ford also commented that Flatrock only operates with one shift... Ford cannot physically sell anymore Mustang's... It is impossible.. The most important thing now is to focus on production numbers associated with actual sales.. The S197 was very successful, no need to make any last minute mistakes...

Edit: By the time 2014 rolls around, the 5th Gen will be dragging it's feet in sales. The more Camaro's that sell today the less Camaro's will sell tomorrow. By about 2012-13, the 5th Gen will be up for a mid model refresh or perhaps even around the same time Ford goes public with the 50th Anniversary Mustang to shush the buzz a little. We’re looking at a good 200 pound weight reduction not counting the 4 cylinder which will obviously be the lightest offering. The dimensions should be very close to what is available today or somewhat similar to the M3's. The physical size cannot be too much smaller as Ford still needs to squeeze the 5.0 between the strut towers and the length and wheelbase would look awkward if the track width remains the same.
I'm saving this post so that in 4 or 5 years,(if you're still around), You will be proven wrong. I will repost your statement at the appropriate time. How about taking your ford sunglasses off and looking at the numbers as they are now. Face it, right now for the past couple years GM has made a better product and the sales are reflecting it. There is no point in dreaming and trying to predict how the buying public will react to sales of a car that hasn't been built yet, much less having been fully designed and released to the public. Don't take this as a flame, just trying to point out some nonsense.
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Old 05-07-2011, 04:17 AM   #51
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I'm saving this post so that in 4 or 5 years,(if you're still around), You will be proven wrong. I will repost your statement at the appropriate time. How about taking your ford sunglasses off and looking at the numbers as they are now. Face it, right now for the past couple years GM has made a better product and the sales are reflecting it. There is no point in dreaming and trying to predict how the buying public will react to sales of a car that hasn't been built yet, much less having been fully designed and released to the public. Don't take this as a flame, just trying to point out some nonsense.
No offense taken, but you do realize that the Ecoboost and GM's Ecotech engines will be hot sellers right? There is a large market for fuel efficient sport coupes. Take the 1 series and 3 series BMW's for example, the 1 series outsells the 3 series on a 3 to 1 ratio here in Europe. The Ecoboost Mustang will be a HUGE seller and so will the Ecotech Camaro when it arrives 2016-2017. Thinking that the 5th Gen Camaro sales will still be just as strong in 2014 is wishful thinking but I only hope that they can maintain throughout the last couple of years. Sales of the Camaro during Q4 2010 and January 2011 were very low. Now that can be accredited to seasonal trends but those seasonal trends had a very small effect on the 5th gen during the first year. The Camaro's sales will be that of the Mustang's are now, strong through the spring/summer and non existent throughout the fall and winter. Most of that sales decline has to do with Ford's production, Ford only produces Mustang's at capacity during 3 of the 4 quarters of the year.

By 2014, The 5th Gen Camaro's sales will be at the lowest during its model life and will need a refresh to help with sales. There is a big possibility that the 5th Gen won't even make it to where the S197 has as far a model life goes. The S197 will be almost 10 years old when it leaves production, that is incredible for an automobile today and it still manages strong spring/summer sales. The S197 will be close to one million sales when it leaves the fleet, something that the 5th Gen Camaro cannot replicate. As of today, the Camaro has sold just as many units as the Mustang sold in 2005 alone, I know the market has changed and it will change again when Ford redefines the Pony Car market in 2014. The reality is, the Eco 4 cylinders will carry the pony car market into the next generation and any Eco pony car will dominate the segment... the question is, how long can GM hold out on the 5th Gen while pent up demand for a new lightweight economy/performance sport coupe is available... and as the market slowly changes into whatever the Mustang becomes. I hope that the 5th Gen Camaro can survive until 2017...

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Old 05-07-2011, 09:40 AM   #52
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As of today, the Camaro has sold just as many units as the Mustang sold in 2005 alone, I know the market has changed and it will change again when Ford redefines the Pony Car market in 2014. The reality is, the Eco 4 cylinders will carry the pony car market into the next generation and any Eco pony car will dominate the segment... the question is, how long can GM hold out on the 5th Gen while pent up demand for a new lightweight economy/performance sport coupe is available... and as the market slowly changes into whatever the Mustang becomes. I hope that the 5th Gen Camaro can survive until 2017...
First, you say "I know the market has changed" as if some minor event happened. A total collapse of the world banking system like we've never seen before (and it's not over). Life is different on this side of 2008! Also, Ford had no competition in 2005, and with the revamped style... it gave those who have been dying for a real American made muscle car a reason to go out and buy one. (I personally loved it when they 'fixed' everything that was wrong with the ugly mustang... best thing on the road from 2005 to 2007 until the Challenger came out.) Ford's timing was perfect! Unfortunately they ruined the style again with the changes they made in 2010, and if not for the release of the 5.0... sales would have continued to plummet.

Second, Eco 4 cylinder pony car? Isn't that an oxymoron? (stress on the moron part) If pony/muscle cars go that direction, they are going to lose their current customer base (enthusiasts). Just the thought of eliminating the V-8 has some trembling in their britches. Maybe they will pick up a new customer base, but i seriously doubt it, these automobiles are a fortune to insure and there are many other "Eco-friendly" cars that won't break the bank. Ford can sell all the eco-crap they want, but I would argue that is not, and never will be, the market for these automobiles; if they want to cut their own throat... fine by me. Lets hope there is never an eco-camaro!

Finally, it looks as though GM is fully understanding their customer base. People who want a Camaro, want something unique... something their own. GM is releasing limited editions every 6 months, breathing new life into the Camaro every year! Instead of trying to target outside of their market, they are tying to attract as much of the market as they can... knowing that it is a limited market. I believe you even proved this in a previous post... the market for these cars is limited, and when one manufacturer gains customers, the others lose. GM is increasing their share of the market, while Ford is losing. (facts are facts)
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Old 05-07-2011, 10:01 AM   #53
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Old 05-07-2011, 02:40 PM   #54
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First, you say "I know the market has changed" as if some minor event happened. A total collapse of the world banking system like we've never seen before (and it's not over). Life is different on this side of 2008! Also, Ford had no competition in 2005, and with the revamped style... it gave those who have been dying for a real American made muscle car a reason to go out and buy one. (I personally loved it when they 'fixed' everything that was wrong with the ugly mustang... best thing on the road from 2005 to 2007 until the Challenger came out.) Ford's timing was perfect! Unfortunately they ruined the style again with the changes they made in 2010, and if not for the release of the 5.0... sales would have continued to plummet.
I would argue that the 2010+ Mustang's styling bad, for the most part, the 2010+ Mustang's took the S197 into a more modern look. It was the refresh that finally got me to commit because although it was more of a modern approach, it reminded me of the 67-69 Mustangs.

Ford had no competition in 2005 and that was partially the reason they sold huge amounts of the new car. The more they sold then, the less they will sell now.. Just as the 1964-66 Mustangs sold large quantities, when the Camaro came out in 1967, the Mustang's sales dropped... but the profits were already made. By the time the '69 Mustang came out, Ford was only selling a fraction of what they had been, same with the Camaro... sales were down across the board.

Since the Camaro was released in 2009, the Mustang's sales have doubled, some of that has to do with the mid-model refresh, some of that is the engine (both V6 and V8) and some of that is just interest in the market. Last month, 12,000 consumers thought that the Camaro didn't look good enough, didn't perform good enough and was too expensive to buy. Looks are subjective, if the Camaro did in fact look the best, then the Camaro would have sold 22,000 cars last month... I personally did not like the Camaro enough to buy it in 2009 based on looks, I loved the performance... but the car bothered me from certain angles.
Quote:
Second, Eco 4 cylinder pony car? Isn't that an oxymoron? (stress on the moron part) If pony/muscle cars go that direction, they are going to lose their current customer base (enthusiasts). Just the thought of eliminating the V-8 has some trembling in their britches. Maybe they will pick up a new customer base, but i seriously doubt it, these automobiles are a fortune to insure and there are many other "Eco-friendly" cars that won't break the bank. Ford can sell all the eco-crap they want, but I would argue that is not, and never will be, the market for these automobiles; if they want to cut their own throat... fine by me. Lets hope there is never an eco-camaro!
What made a pony car wasn't about a massive V8, it wasn't even really about horsepower, it was about fun. These cars were daily drivers, race cars, show cars, family cars... affordable cars. While the "muscle cars" went the way of the dinosaurs, the pony car adapted and overcame government regulation, customer demand, generation styling and a fuel crisis. What your saying is that if Pony cars go in that direction that they will lose their current customer base? Their current customer base is changing, the enthusiast that have stuck with these cars make up less than 1% of the entire buyers that purchase them. Ford and GM need to open the door to a new consumer and our Eco engines will allow that to happen. There will always be a V8 Mustang/Camaro, but make no mistake about it, when Ford equips the Mustang III with a 275hp, Ecoboost 2.0 and Mustang sales triple if not more... GM will be close behind with their Ecotech 2.0/2,2. This is the future of our pony cars, ask yourself, what happened to the "muscle cars" of the 60's when they refused to adjust to the situation and stay true to the 1% of their dedicated enthusiast?

I never said that the V8 would be eliminated, but the base models would be made to appeal to a broader market... A market that will bring more than just the 1% of enthusiast, the type of consumers that want a car that is fun and easy to live with. GM can continue to just offer the V6 and V8, they are free to do that... but remember, the Mustang's sales numbers will be as high, if not higher than the current economy base cars today. Who wouldn't want a fun, fast and affordable sports coupe that gets fantastic fuel mileage with almost unlimited options? This is how these cars survived when so many others have died... because they were fun...

Quote:
Finally, it looks as though GM is fully understanding their customer base. People who want a Camaro, want something unique... something their own. GM is releasing limited editions every 6 months, breathing new life into the Camaro every year! Instead of trying to target outside of their market, they are tying to attract as much of the market as they can... knowing that it is a limited market. I believe you even proved this in a previous post... the market for these cars is limited, and when one manufacturer gains customers, the others lose. GM is increasing their share of the market, while Ford is losing. (facts are facts
GM is releasing limited editions every 6 months to sustain sales, not to answer the bases needs. If they were listening to their customer base then there would be a 2012 Z28. The limited edition cars is something that Ford has been doing for years. It is to sustain sales and maintain excitement, those Camaro's will be nothing more than a body kit and decal job. Right now GM has about 45% of the market and that is because of the convertible being released. Sales of the Camaro were just as awful at the end of last year. Think about it, this market SUCKS right now... there were only 22,000 pony cars sold last month. Ford is losing market share because Ford reentered this particular market 8 years ago. Ford can't possibly maintain a sales lead after selling 750,000+ S197 Mustangs, who can they possibly sell cars to? A majority of those 750,000 Mustang were no doubt sold second hand, and some of those second hand Mustang's were sold again. It's highly likely that almost 2 million people have owned a 2005-2012 Mustang at some point.. but Ford somehow sells new Mustang's month over month. Ford saturated the market years ago and the aftermarket is where Ford makes a lot of money from the Mustang. Did you know that Ford makes more money in the aftermarket S197 program than GM does with the new car sales of the 2010-2011 Camaro? When I say aftermarket, I don't mean superchargers and stuff, it could be OEM replacements and repair work as well. The 2014 Mustang will alter the pony car market again and there is a 99.9999% chance that GM follows. This means that there will be Ecoboost and Ecotech pony cars... and I know for a fact that the tuner aftermarket is very, very excited...

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Old 05-07-2011, 03:43 PM   #55
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Ford's Eco Boost 3.5L is more boost than Eco.
I have a feeling that GM's 3.6L twin turbo would be the same.
Just don't thiink the fuel savings are that much unless they make a decision to gear them tall.
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Old 05-07-2011, 04:33 PM   #56
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Ford's Eco Boost 3.5L is more boost than Eco.
I have a feeling that GM's 3.6L twin turbo would be the same.
Just don't thiink the fuel savings are that much unless they make a decision to gear them tall.
Those are the V6 Ecoboost/Ecotech engines, they will probably find a home in the Mustang III and 6th Gen. I am talking about the base 2.0 Inline 4 cylinder engines that both Ford and GM have. They produce between 275-300hp and achieve 30-35+mpg. I am seriously considering my first convertible being an Ecoboost 2.0 Mustang III...
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