Turbo Kits/Reliability

[FreddyG]

Originally Posted by dracer98

OK - OTK asked for help and an opinion and rather than answer the question you guys say read all the other posts and threads? That’s like going to the dealer for help and the guy telling you - well did you read the manual

So< I will do what he asked and back it up with fact...The question is all about the various 2010 turbo options out there and how reliable can they be.

Today most turbo manufactures make very reliable products - That is not to be confused by the various kit makers. You have many choices and types:

Single top mount
Double top mount
Single bottom mount
Double bottom mount
and some call the muffler turbo type another option

You asked about Fastlane so you already know they offer a single top mount system.
Turbonetics has also developed a single top mount that they claim will ultimately by 50 state legal
Single top mount systems require a cross over pipe that merges all the exhaust flow and energy into the "hot side" of the turbocharger. You basically take all the heat that is radiating out of the heads which is also known as energy and channel it into the turbo.

Twin turbo top mount -
FLP, early on, developed a twin turbo kit that had top mount turbos. If 1 top mount turbo makes heat in the wrong spot then 2 top mount turbos are double trouble. In the case of FLP, it could be quite possibly the most unprofessional kit ever made. It looks like a kindergartener built it. It gives all turbo kits a bad name. This is the only kit I know of that puts the turbos up in your face.

Why I don't particularly care for the top mount design - Like I said it puts all that heat off the cylinder heads right over the valve cover (s) or better said, in the immediate surrounding area of where it is mounted. Take for example the new Turbonetics kit coming down the pike. It mounts the turbo in a location very similar to the Fastlane kit but angles it a slight bit differently a lower in the frame. In other words if the turbo on the Fastlane kit is mounted at 1 0-clock then Turbonetics mounts the turbo at a little less than 2 0-clock and shoves it forward a few inches to keep heat off the front of the engine dress.

Fastlane makes claims that the factory (General Motors) mounts their turbos up high which is actually not the case. But it is a different story for a different thread. Like they say everyone has an opinion on the subject and my opinion is - Don't ever mount a turbocharger with super hot exhaust right next to the spark plug wires, the coils, the valve covers, ABS unit and the likes. You ask why companies do it then. Simple Turbonetics tells you they would prefer to run twins but there is no way to accomplish that 50 state legally. Meaning the law states you cannot move or alter the cats at all. In fact all you guys that purchase bigger after market cats for your cars with headers are still breaking the law. Look it up if you think I am wrong. There is no such thing as a 50 state legal aftermarket performance catalytic converter. Scratch that – if you have over 50,000 miles on your car and you need new cats then you can change them... While changing them, nothing stops you from going bigger. But for the most parts it is not legal. Back to business – Turbonetics marries the exhaust at the front and mounts the single turbo high because in order to build a Y pipe AFTER THE FACTORY CATALYTICs there is no way to get a big enough single turbo under the car. So, it ends up high. Fastlane obviously has the ability to build a twin just as easy as they did the single but I would surmise now that they are pushing the big single it would be a conflicting story to push a twin. Especially when they know the twins can easily make more power in a better package – by package I mean space.

That leads us to Single turbo mounted under the car – like I said – it just doesn’t package right. Sure you could probably wedge a 60mm turbo under the car in the proximity of the front end but the turbo is only good enough to make roughly 550hp at a very high boost - this would not be optimal to say the least.

You could take the STS route and mount a big single towards the back but while your back there you may as well go duels – which is exactly what they do.

So let’s talk about twin muffler type turbos, aka the STS version, when all else fails every car manufacture makes room for a muffler – if there is space for the muffler there is space to take it out and drop in a turbo or 2. That must be STS’s motto. On the dyno, the STS kit proves that a turbo does not really mind pumping through a maze of piping in order to ultimately pressurize the engine. So what is the draw back to the STS method – Turbo lag(The time required to bring the turbo up to a speed where it can function effectively by compressing air into the engine (aka) lag is the delay between the instant a car's accelerator is depressed and the time the turbocharger take to make boost and some would say full boost.)Whenever you talk to “anti-turbo” people they want to talk about turbo lag. A better definition would be boost lag – and boost lag can be measured in any compressor application. Certainly the centrifugal blower companies can’t preach about lag because they blowers make boost based solely on engine RPM – that means the turbo makes peak boost sooner and maintains it longer than a centrifugal. The Magnuson, Kenne Bell, Whipple crowd make boost sooner than the turbo and carry it through out the engine RPM but it comes at the cost of crank HP robbed to spin the unit. –

Back on track – The STS kit has more lag then most other twin and single turbo kits because the farther you put the turbos from the exhaust discharge of the heads the more time it makes to get them up in their sweet spot – this is also known as PUMPING LOSS –

Foot Note - Although a turbo's position in the exhaust stream does restrict exhaust flow potential to some extent, the pumping losses are much less than the parasitic drag induced by a conventional supercharger's belt or gears. In a typical gasoline-fueled engine, it's common to see 30 out of every 100 hp added by a belt driven supercharger being wasted turning the drive pulleys and belts; this compares to about 5-10 hp per every 100 suffered as pumping losses by a typically well-designed turbo installation.

Interesting to note: Considered as a system, a good twin turbo setup has less heat buildup than a large single turbo system. Additionally, the twin turbo setup has less heat buildup than a Magnuson/Kenne Bell/Whipple type blower, and its smaller size compared to a centrifugal supercharger permits higher compressor-wheel rotational speeds and more radical blade-tip curvature that collectively translate into greater pumping efficiency. A large single turbo system radiates heat more in line with that of a non intercooled centrifugal type.

The Twin Turbo set up is often perceived as complex and difficult to install over other systems but that is simply not the case. Sure you need a hoist, lift and or jack stands to install it but once installed it is the most maintenance free and trouble free of them all and that was the real first question – Reliability!.

So let’s talk about all the twin turbo set ups out there:

Granatelli Motor Sports – Everyone Pretty much agrees they have the nicest looking kit out there – should I say just released kit out there They run PTS turbos which are considered to best in the business and I have firsthand knowledge that the PTS 6265 turbo feed 600hp each at moderated boost levels – so this kit is what they say Able to go from Mild to Wild! How can you go wrong with Granatelli, everything they put their minds to usually is top notch – they work with Turbo Tech - that just gives this kit the 1 -2 punch over the rest in my book

Hellion Turbo Systems – They claim to also be shipping and they use 58mm Turbonetics turbos. Turbonetics put a 1 year warranty on all their turbos so that should add some piece of mind. The reviews on these guys are also pretty good so far – although you gotta wonder why they sell turbo kits but race at the track with Centrifugal stuff.

STS – we talked about them. Not sure if a want to spend 8 to 10k for a system that put the air filter right behind the rear tires but I am sure there must be a shroud for that – just not show in the pictures. But again it has the lag issue – good thing about the STS kit, the turbos come after the factory cats so they are as close to 50 state legal as you can get. – If power is not the first priority and you don’t worry about the turbos vacuuming up water from what gets thrown off the tires, this a great system as well

There are other players out there too – you just don’t hear as much because they are not quite there yet.

So while other want to tell you to “look it up” or “make your own choice” I hope this helps you in a cliff notes kind of way.

You can’t go wrong with forced induction on your Camaro and the choices are plenty

If you're talking about the top mount kits for the Vettes, FLP only made one! It was Custom made for a Certain Red Z06 and wasn't a top mount. Very Well thought out setup that turned out to be VERY efficient per pound of boost.

I think that you're thinking of PTK. They made a top mount setup that made sure that you wouldn't get cold in the winter, if you know what I mean! It would get HOT! There were a couple of Guys that modded them to get them to work, but it cost some Serious coin to get it done!

Great write up though and lots of info (not to mention how long it probably took you to type all of that! Nice job!

Originally Posted by OTK_Master

Thank you to everyone for the replies. Especially Dracer98. Very useful info, good to know. Sry I didn't reply sooner, been very busy. Ohh and if some one could post a link to the Granatelli TT kit that'd be great. I went to the website and wasn't able to find the part.

You can use the TTi website link above because it's basically the same system, if I'm not mistaken.

[Granatelli]

Dracer98 - slow down killer. No need to bash the competition. Our quality will speak for itself - thanks for your order

[376TT]

To FLP & Nickey Chicago, thank you for the explanitions in a much better format than I have the ability to convey.
Still looking foward to getting behind the wheel of our Nickey-FLP TT IOM Camaro.

For those interested it may be seen on the FLP website under gallery.

[FreddyG]

I hope that I didn't start this stuff!

If I did by mentioning FLP, then I'm Really Sorry, but I thought that he was speaking of Corvette systems and that's why I corrected him. I didn't know that FLP was doing a Camaro turbo.

I just remembered when you did Gary's Z06 and how well it turned out.

FLP does know their stuff about turbo's as evidenced by Dan's mustang and their system should work well, but also as far as TTiX goes, I don't think that there's a better DIY twin system available (no offense to the other twin kits, just giving my oinion)!

Once again, if I opened up this can of worms, then I Apologize!

[BrooksRacing]

Late Model Racecraft in Houston Tx has the best fabricators in the country and have been building turbo kits on corvettes/vipers/camaros for as long as I can remember. They are currently designing their 2010 camaro kit that will set the bar for turbo kits on these 5th gen cars. I am sure they will offer a kit for a stock motor that will make 650rwhp all the way up to 1500hp builds for the guys that want to build an engine for maximum hp! Oh yea, I think they are building twin turbo kits, not single.

[dracer98]

Originally Posted by BrooksRacing

Late Model Racecraft in Houston Tx has the best fabricators in the country and have been building turbo kits on corvettes/vipers/camaros for as long as I can remember. They are currently designing their 2010 camaro kit that will set the bar for turbo kits on these 5th gen cars. I am sure they will offer a kit for a stock motor that will make 650rwhp all the way up to 1500hp builds for the guys that want to build an engine for maximum hp! Oh yea, I think they are building twin turbo kits, not single.

Perhaps I need to clarify a few things. Fastlane biulds a very nice and professionally laid out single turbo kit that is top mount. And while it is my opinion that top mount turbos are not ideal for long term durability, I think we can all agree THEIR WORKMANSHIP is very nice. Likewise, Turbonetics is releasing thier own top mount kit that I am sure will also be very nice. Granatelli and TTi in partnership released their Twin Turbo kit that mounts the turbos opposing each side of the block and they mount down low but still above the frame rails. Thier workmanship is also above reproach. I am sure if a company like Fastlane wanted to build a twin turbo top mount system they could and likewise I am sure it would look very well laid out.

However I still would not be a big fan of two turbos mounted on top. My comments above were related to workmanship and design layout.

I would love to put a face and age with every car owner on this board. I think it would be a great study. like these guys:





I agree these are super bad ass cars but not the car you drive on a first date anymore - they are too loud and have become more single purpose



This car seems more realistic yet still has the claimed 1000hp. So whats better 1000 hp so loud it scares woman and children or 900hp that you can pull up to a stop light next to a cop and he is none the wiser.

Perhaps I am getting old

I am sure LMR will offer a great twin turbo kit - at this point how many do we need? It seems like everyone wants a custom kit when now that Granantell and other offer super nice kits there is no need to keep reinventing the wheel. Example LMR put their spin on the Procharger kit but they did not biuld a whole new kit

[BrooksRacing]

I make 1000rwhp now, that video you posted was this the 12 rib setup making around 16lbs of boost. I currently had LMR install a cog setup and turned it up another 4-5lbs.


I agree though, my car is loud, that is why I am thinking about having them custom build me a new turbo kit. I drive this car alot on the weekends so I might just have to ditch the corsa exhaust and install a magnaflow catback and put on electric cutouts for the track for now until I go the turbo route.

[dracer98]

Originally Posted by BrooksRacing

I make 1000rwhp now, that video you posted was this the 12 rib setup making around 16lbs of boost. I currently had LMR install a cog setup and turned it up another 4-5lbs.


I agree though, my car is loud, that is why I am thinking about having them custom build me a new turbo kit. I drive this car alot on the weekends so I might just have to ditch the corsa exhaust and install a magnaflow catback and put on electric cutouts for the track for now until I go the turbo route.

Can they build you a complete Turbo kit for less than than $7995? That is what GMS/TTI is charging and they have proven that kit will make 1187 rwhp so far - And it is not loud

[Granatelli]

I hope FLP and Nickey don't feel that dracer is speaking for us at Granatelli? While he has strong opinions he makes a lot of great points - I am sure many agree with what he is saying just not how he is saying it.

[FreddyG]

Originally Posted by dracer98

This car seems more realistic yet still has the claimed 1000hp. So whats better 1000 hp so loud it scares woman and children or 900hp that you can pull up to a stop light next to a cop and he is none the wiser.

Perhaps I am getting old

I am sure LMR will offer a great twin turbo kit - at this point how many do we need? It seems like everyone wants a custom kit when now that Granantell and other offer super nice kits there is no need to keep reinventing the wheel. Example LMR put their spin on the Procharger kit but they did not biuld a whole new kit

I have to agree with you that I'd be More than Happy to lose 100 horses to be stealthy!

I must be getting old too!

Sometimes though just doing something simple to a kit (Procharger) and improving it can make it worth while to remarket it.

The example that I can give is in the Corvette market, Andy Green of A&A built heir own kits with custom brackets and stuff to get rid of belt slippage and provide more wrap and sold the kit for less than Procharger was selling them for. Procharger liked it so much that the next version of theirs copied his (and charged more). He now sells Vortechs. ECS is another example, but they use Paxtons. Both are Extremely successful.

Steven "Worm Boy" Ferraday of LMR builds some of the quickest cars around and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that their kit will be Top Notch!

The best thing about all of the competition is that it keeps options high and prices low and that's always a good thing!

Happy Memorial Day to all and GOD Bless our Veterans!

[BrooksRacing]

Originally Posted by FreddyG

I have to agree with you that I'd be More than Happy to lose 100 horses to be stealthy!

I must be getting old too!

Sometimes though just doing something simple to a kit (Procharger) and improving it can make it worth while to remarket it.

The example that I can give is in the Corvette market, Andy Green of A&A built heir own kits with custom brackets and stuff to get rid of belt slippage and provide more wrap and sold the kit for less than Procharger was selling them for. Procharger liked it so much that the next version of theirs copied his (and charged more). He now sells Vortechs. ECS is another example, but they use Paxtons. Both are Extremely successful.

Steven "Worm Boy" Ferraday of LMR builds some of the quickest cars around and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that their kit will be Top Notch!

The best thing about all of the competition is that it keeps options high and prices low and that's always a good thing!

Happy Memorial Day to all and GOD Bless our Veterans!

Yes, they do build bad ass forced induction cars. Here are some of the quite 1000+hp builds you "older" guys will enjoy.

[FreddyG]

Originally Posted by BrooksRacing

Yes, they do build bad ass forced induction cars. Here are some of the quite 1000+hp builds you "older" guys will enjoy.

WOW! Thanks for sharing those!

You owe me a keyboard because I drooled on mine and shorted it out!

[Granatelli]

More nice cars agreed - Perhaps I need to put up a video of my 989hp and 1007 ft/lb 04 Vette. Sounds like a stock car with a Corsa - until you step on it - it is hold to muffle 1000hp - admittedly

Likewise - I just sold my SL65BLK - witht he upgrades it made 813hp and 983 ft/lbs - talk about tame until you step on it. My wife drove the baby around in it for 1 month and never complained about drone or anything. Then I took it to the drag strip and ran 10.27 at 134.7 / 10.29 at 135.5 back to back. Car weighed 4897lbs with driver - that included light weight parts -

talk about super quiet - wow

[FreddyG]

Originally Posted by Granatelli

More nice cars agreed - Perhaps I need to put up a video of my 989hp and 1007 ft/lb 04 Vette. Sounds like a stock car with a Corsa - until you step on it - it is hold to muffle 1000hp - admittedly

Likewise - I just sold my SL65BLK - witht he upgrades it made 813hp and 983 ft/lbs - talk about tame until you step on it. My wife drove the baby around in it for 1 month and never complained about drone or anything. Then I took it to the drag strip and ran 10.27 at 134.7 / 10.29 at 135.5 back to back. Car weighed 4897lbs with driver - that included light weight parts -

talk about super quiet - wow

Please post them up!

I've always admired the TTiX kits on the Vettes! Not only do they make HUGE power, but they're Really Stealthy (you can't see them unless you know what you're looking for)!

As far as the Benz, WOW! That's a Beautiful car!

I didn't know that the turbo business was so prosperous! That's not an inexpensive car to buy, much less mod! It sounds like a Very Civilized BEAST!